Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-12-2011, 12:50 PM   #1
Nyarli
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ukhta, Russia
Default TL9 Spaceships

I am reading Starship books, and i have some questions about drives:
1) I have made some calculations, and it's looks like magsails are Just Better for interplanetary transportation inside of Solar system at TL9( without superscience) than everything else, especially if you don't want more than 10 systems dedicated to propulsion. Magsails are on par with reaction drives on AU1, and outperform then on AU2+ distances, which is quite important, if you plan to travel to Jupiter or Saturn. They are not the most expensive of all drives, they don't require fuel and their only drawback is inability to start from planet. Am i right, or i have missed something?
2)Related question: Which drives would you allow to be used in Earth atmosphere? It is obvious that Orion drive is off-limits, but what about other drives?
Nyarli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:02 PM   #2
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarli View Post
Am i right, or i have missed something?
Other options might be cheaper in some applications if you are more worried about expense over velocity, but otherwise they seem like a pretty good choice in real-life too.
Quote:
2)Related question: Which drives would you allow to be used in Earth atmosphere? It is obvious that Orion drive is off-limits, but what about other drives?
Would who allow? Me personally? A likely near-future Earth (with a still active anti-nuke contingent)? A hypothetical space-faring civilization that's less conservative?
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:08 PM   #3
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarli View Post
2)Related question: Which drives would you allow to be used in Earth atmosphere? It is obvious that Orion drive is off-limits, but what about other drives?
Do you mean "Which drives do you believe are capable of functioning in Earth atmosphere?" or "Which drives would you, as a GM, have be legal to use in Earth's atmosphere?"
johndallman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:22 PM   #4
Nyarli
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ukhta, Russia
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

I asked about legality( and yes it is future of our Earth, not abstract space-faring civilization) but I would be glad to hear if some drive s from Spaceships are unable to function in atmosphere, by your opinion.
Nyarli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:32 PM   #5
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarli View Post
I asked about legality( and yes it is future of our Earth, not abstract space-faring civilization)
Then any kind of nuclear or antimatter propulsion is almost certainly right out.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:35 PM   #6
wellspring
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyarli View Post
I am reading Starship books, and i have some questions about drives:
1) I have made some calculations, and it's looks like magsails are Just Better for interplanetary transportation inside of Solar system at TL9( without superscience) than everything else, especially if you don't want more than 10 systems dedicated to propulsion. Magsails are on par with reaction drives on AU1, and outperform then on AU2+ distances, which is quite important, if you plan to travel to Jupiter or Saturn. They are not the most expensive of all drives, they don't require fuel and their only drawback is inability to start from planet. Am i right, or i have missed something?
2)Related question: Which drives would you allow to be used in Earth atmosphere? It is obvious that Orion drive is off-limits, but what about other drives?
1) Some people have argued that Spaceships is a mite too generous with the capabilities of magsails-- mostly the fact that (at least the plasma version) does require some consumables, which can be treated effectively as propellant. Also, the mathematics of them is highly simplified, so some of the downsides are lost in translation to a gaming product. They're still very good. In the Transhuman Space setting, much of the old-generation (TL9) commerce was on sails.

Another downside is with their lack of thrust, which for combat purposes makes them less useful as a combat drive.

2) Depends on the setting. The fission air ram of THS definitely has slightly radioactive exhaust. I think the same might go for fission, fusion and antimatter drives (including if they use ram-rockets). Enough that it would be a problem? Well, not for one ship, but if a planet has a fair amount of commerce then it might add up. It's also a psychological issue for people scared of radiation (which really is obviously very legit with an Orion) even when it's minor. Finally, there's the Kzinti Lesson: any drive efficient and powerful enough to be interesting is devastating if weaponized.

In Transhuman Space, anti-nuke laws keep them on chemical and laser rockets... but it would be hard for me to believe that they don't have military ships (openly or as a secret program) in reserve with more powerful nuke engines (such as pulse drives, antimatter thermal, NTR, or even Orion) for when you need real heavy lift capability.

Me, personally, if I were GM I'd allow it in a game, certainly. Habitable planets like Earth, I can see would have strict laws against it (though national gov'ts are not above exempting themselves from regulations intended to keep the hoi polloi in line). For the rest of the solar system, I don't see why such laws would exist. And in settings where you're flitting around uncharted space, why not use shuttles with some muscles? (The ram-rocket feature is especially useful here, since you can launch a shuttle, aerobrake on the way in, fly around exploring without burning propellant, and so have a mostly-full tank to return to the mother ship when you're done.)

Last edited by wellspring; 08-12-2011 at 01:40 PM. Reason: wrong tags
wellspring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:39 PM   #7
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by wellspring View Post
1)
2) Depends on the setting. The fission air ram of THS definitely has slightly radioactive exhaust. I think the same might go for fission, fusion and antimatter drives (including if they use ram-rockets). Enough that it would be a problem? Well, not for one ship, but if a planet has a fair amount of commerce then it might add up. It's also a psychological issue for people scared of radiation (which really is obviously very legit with an Orion) even when it's minor.
The big block to all nuclear and antimatter drives seems to be with accidental explosions and crashes rather than exhaust (since quite a few designs can have repetitively benign exhaust). I think you would need to have massive global political change to remove this.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:41 PM   #8
wellspring
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The big block to all nuclear and antimatter drives seems to be with accidental explosions and crashes rather than exhaust (since quite a few designs can have repetitively benign exhaust). I think you would need to have massive global political change to remove this.
Good point, though with a powerful enough reaction drive, global political change is surprisingly easy to accomplish!
wellspring is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:44 PM   #9
sir_pudding
Wielder of Smart Pants
 
sir_pudding's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by wellspring View Post
Good point, though with a powerful enough reaction drive, global political change is surprisingly easy to accomplish!
Yeah, but then we are back to the "abstract space-faring civilization" that the OP isn't asking about. The political status quo of Earth as it is simply doesn't care about space travel and is pathologically afraid of nuclear reactors.
sir_pudding is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2011, 01:47 PM   #10
wellspring
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Default Re: TL9 Spaceships

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yeah, but then we are back to the "abstract space-faring civilization" that the OP isn't asking about. The political status quo of Earth as it is simply doesn't care about space travel and is pathologically afraid of nuclear reactors.
That was meant as a quip. With a sufficiently powerful reaction drive, you can just hold the earth hostage and crown yourself Emperor Pudding I, then make whatever rules you want. Though I suppose a Pudding Regime would want to consolidate its position by immediately outlawing good reaction drives. So the point stands.
wellspring is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
magsail, spaceships, tl9

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:26 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.