[Spaceships] Open Space for life support and Strict Carnivore Races

[Purple Haze]

Originally Posted by fschiff

May I recommend Purina Predator Chow, (a real product!) or the equivalent for a spaceship's pantry.

Ask the man who tried to live for a month on Purina Monkey Chow what that would do for morale.

[Darekun]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

I commonly hear that plants are at least 10x as efficient as meat, but when I hear that, it's always from aggressive vegetarians with scary, manic eyes -- so it's likely exaggerated in the name of propaganda. :)

In general, that's accurate for wild feeding, if you control for growth time(cows have trouble there) and metabolic rate(mainly endothermic vs exothermic, but within those you get variations in "carrying temperature").

Technological solutions often work by adjusting metabolic rate(like those fertilizer-required plants) or equivalent(like growth hormones), but at least in theory similarly-effective techniques would apply to any prey. However, our techbase includes stronger improvements to animal prey than plant prey, despite more of our intake being plants. I don't know if that's because we like meat better(more revenue), or because improvements in plants are more likely to spread(more profit margin), or other economic reason, or if it's actually harder to buff plants. (Or if it's just that they stack, since you can use fertilizer-required plants to feed animals injected with growth hormones.)

Also, none of this applies if you're feeding the populace with CHON machines(i.e. wet-nano replicators), but that's a different room type :J



However, I suspect this:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Many times I encountered replies on this forum that being a total carnivore is not enough to qualify for -10 points of Restricted Diet.

is more a result of this:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

But realistically, there's no such thing as a carnivore so exclusive that you couldn't concoct a suitable nutritional substitute at TL 9 plus, keeping the fresh meat for high ranking members or special occasions.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

(Side note: recently, also heard that industrial cat food is actually not very healthy for cats, being closer to a very mild Substitution class of food from Restricted Diet. Opinions?)

The cats are certain of it :J

From what I've read, dry cat food is mostly grain and filler, which is equivalent to a human living off junk food minus the salt and sugar. Anecdotally, cats seem healthier if they get at least some wet food. However, the anecdotal impression doesn't continue to improve; somewhere between 10% and 20% wet food is just as good as 100% wet food.

[David Johnston2]

Well by the RAW what qualifies for the restricted diet is only being able to eat fresh meat. Thus a species of carnivores in a fantasy campaign who can "only" eat meat but _can_ eat smoked or dried meat are less than a -10 restricted diet because they have more flexibility. They can store and transport their food.

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by Darekun

From what I've read, dry cat food is mostly grain and filler, which is equivalent to a human living off junk food minus the salt and sugar. Anecdotally, cats seem healthier if they get at least some wet food. However, the anecdotal impression doesn't continue to improve; somewhere between 10% and 20% wet food is just as good as 100% wet food.

Dry Cat Food (and Dog Food as well) is mostly filler, and not stuff an animal was meant to eat. Wet Cat Food is still unhealthy, but better than dry (say, it's eating KFC every night compared to Twinkies every night - either diet will make a nutritionist cringe, but at you you are getting some sort actual food from KFC). Most brands of Wet Dog Food, on the hand, are incredibly unhealthy - it's waste meat: the stuff even hotdog plants turn away.

[Trachmyr]

I'd like to adress the other component of the thread... when is Restrcted Diet appropriate?

The major thing that seems to indicate that Obligate Carnivores don't qualify, is that at the -10 level it lists Fresh Meat rather than just meat. Yet there are a few animal templates that include Resticted Diet (Herbivore) for -10 points.

I believe that the "Fresh" in Fresh Meat was a colorful way to describe carnivores rather than being a true refinement of meat eaters.

The disadvantage of restricted diet is a combination of availability, legality and cost. Compare it to Increased consumption. At the -10 point level, both are primarily a cost concern at higher TLs, and availability at lower TLs. Personally I think being restricted to 3 meals of meat vs. six meals of grains, meats, or whatever is available is equivalent.

The fact that cats, which are obligate carnivores, can eat cat food, does not dissuade the argument. Cat food uses synthetic protiens and specialy proccessed plant fillers. They are a recent creation of modern society, and were impossible to make before TL7. They are not the healthiest thing for your cat, and most cats will supplement their diet with small animals (lizards, mice, moths) when available. In fact, as most cat owners know, when your cat begins to eat grass or other plants, they are in fact trying to make themselves throw up. Cats also have to eat a lot of cat food to gain the needed nutrition, easily two to three times the mass of what they would eat in meat. Finally, a cat's diet is also supplemented by generous table scraps... I don't know a single cat owner that doesn't give their cat's treats at dinner time.

So I would argue that Restricted Diet (Carnivore) is indeed worth -10 points (for obligate carnivores that is). Just consider the topic of the post, a carnivore species will need to dedicate far more space than an omnivore to food production.... (Compare to Increased Consumption)

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by Brett

Google "food conversion ratio" and "feed conversion ratio". Salmon fatten at a conversion rate of 1.2, but they are carnivorous so they are only good for converting scraps. Tilapia fatten at 1.8 under farmed conditions, and are herbivores.

Yep. Excellent out of the square approach. Got told at a Silly Season party the ratios of farmed vs wild caught prawns as sold in the Australian food retail sector. Twas much higher than I would have thought.

Vicky, would industrial aquaculture satisfy the requirements that you are looking for? It would potentially mean that the alien race get their food from fresh aquatic animals, rather from terrestrial lifeforms which require floor space.

[vicky_molokh]

Probably, as long as those fish have comparable nutritional value to land animals. The specific case in question requires a ratio of at least 2 Habitats per open space (otherwise I would just use Total Life Support anyway). The more general question is how many habitats can an open space feed if dedicated to each of the many possible food groups - meat, fish, garden food, algae+fish mix etc.
Fulfilling the needs of various Restricted Diets (including Quirk- or hypothetical 5-point ones) is an important consideration for a Space campaign, especially if one expects to throw a food scarcity Crisis at any point of the campaign.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by lexington

The claim is usually that plants take in 10% of the energy they get, herbivores get 10% of that and carnivores get 10% of that. I have no idea how true that is.

It's very approximately true, but it can be fiddled with by various means.