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Old 09-07-2020, 08:09 PM   #1
kirbwarrior
 
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Default TK + Area Effect

I know for a fact this has been talked about on the forums but I can't quite find much about it or the quote I was looking for by (I believe) Kromm. So, I know I can affect an indeterminate amount of objects with it up to a combined weight based on level. I also think I have to do the same action to everything in it, what kind of enhancement would let me break it up (such as lifting one thing, turning another, and pushing a third to the ground)?

The quote by Kromm is that it effectively give you any number/infinite amount of hands to manipulate with. How does that work with grappling? On one hand that sounds absurd, but on the other an area of telekinesis effect does make sense to me that it can easily 'engulf' something.

Is there anything further I should worry about with this power as a GM or player? Has anyone used it before?

Thank you ahead of time.
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Old 09-07-2020, 08:22 PM   #2
naloth
 
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Default Re: TK + Area Effect

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
I also think I have to do the same action to everything in it,
That's how I've treated it, though the vortex/tornado option (swirling) tends to be the most popular effect.

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what kind of enhancement would let me break it up (such as lifting one thing, turning another, and pushing a third to the ground)?
I'd consider it multiple actions, requiring either ATR or Compartmentalized Mind. I'd let each one control a portion of the TK levels to do different things even in overlapping areas. The total effect still couldn't exceed the levels you have.

Quote:
The quote by Kromm is that it effectively give you any number/infinite amount of hands to manipulate with. How does that work with grappling?
See above. You're still limited your level. Spreading it over multiple targets either makes it weaker or allow them to work together to break the effect.

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Is there anything further I should worry about with this power as a GM or player? Has anyone used it before?
TK isn't any more game breaking than Mind Control or Insubstantiality... which is to say that any of them can be if you don't take into account what relative abilities everyone has.
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Old 09-07-2020, 09:08 PM   #3
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: TK + Area Effect

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I'd consider it multiple actions, requiring either ATR or Compartmentalized Mind. I'd let each one control a portion of the TK levels to do different things even in overlapping areas. The total effect still couldn't exceed the levels you have.
The problem with that approach is that with CM or ATR I can just have two sets of TK going on at once which to me sounds like it would be twice as strong (BL-wise) if the areas overlapped.

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See above. You're still limited your level. Spreading it over multiple targets either makes it weaker or allow them to work together to break the effect.
I am still limited by TK ST, but if I'm only grappling one person then do I get a boost similar to how someone with Extra Arms gets a boost, and if so, how much of a boost?

Also, side thing I forgot about; regular TK still displaces air and makes noise as per hands. Is No Signature (the +25% version) enough to get rid of both of those?
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Old 09-07-2020, 09:21 PM   #4
naloth
 
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Default Re: TK + Area Effect

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The problem with that approach is that with CM or ATR I can just have two sets of TK going on at once which to me sounds like it would be twice as strong (BL-wise) if the areas overlapped.
I probably wasn't clear. I'd let you divide the levels between compartments to do multiple activities. Let's say you had CM/2 and TK 50. You could (for example) split it as TK 10, TK 15, and TK 25. Any area affect would still need to do the same thing within that area, so TK10 could spin people in one area while TK 15 could lift in another area and TK 25 holds people down. If you added Selective Area, you could overlap and omit targets from one affect while affecting them with another (or limit it down to a single target, though selectivity is cheaper if you just want to turn off area from time to time).

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I am still limited by TK ST, but if I'm only grappling one person then do I get a boost similar to how someone with Extra Arms gets a boost, and if so, how much of a boost?
You don't. Any ST bonus you get from extra whatever is baked into the TK level you can exert.

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Also, side thing I forgot about; regular TK still displaces air and makes noise as per hands. Is No Signature (the +25% version) enough to get rid of both of those?
Sure, that's what I would take to remove any obvious cause for the effects you cause.
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Old 09-07-2020, 10:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: TK + Area Effect

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
I probably wasn't clear. I'd let you divide the levels between compartments to do multiple activities. Let's say you had CM/2 and TK 50. You could (for example) split it as TK 10, TK 15, and TK 25. Any area affect would still need to do the same thing within that area, so TK10 could spin people in one area while TK 15 could lift in another area and TK 25 holds people down.
I did understand. But CM can normally allow you to have two entire instances of TK going which would (without AE) let me affect two objects at full TK. Would this just be a heavily limited CM for only being able to affect things within one use of TK?


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You don't. Any ST bonus you get from extra whatever is baked into the TK level you can exert.
Okay. What would an enhancement look like that does give your TK extra arms with one object? What would that look like with Area Effect?

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Sure, that's what I would take to remove any obvious cause for the effects you cause.
Okay, cool, that definitely fits certain forms of TK I've seen in fiction perfectly.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 09-07-2020, 10:34 PM   #6
AlexanderHowl
 
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Default Re: TK + Area Effect

I think it is supposed to represent X pairs of hands doing X actions, with X being the number of objects in the area. You do not get +(Infinity) for your grapples. Anyway, the maximum weight is limited by your TK level, so I would require characters to allocate ST to each target for grapples.
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Old 09-07-2020, 11:47 PM   #7
transmetahuman
 
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Default Re: TK + Area Effect

My take:

Take Compartmentalized mind (one power, no separation, blah blah). Divide the total weight you want to be able to affect by (number of CM +1), and buy enough TK to lift *that* much. The compartments can still all work together to lift the total amount.

About the only weirdness I can see is that you can affect multiple objects over a bigger area than you'd normally get for that level of AE - even areas that aren't connected at all (though you'd be limited to 1/n+1 of the total TK ST BL in the areas that don't overlap). Maybe call it a nuisance effect limitation if all instances of TK must share the same area effect region, if you don't want to deal with that.

I have the same interpretation as AlexanderHowl, one pair of hands per object affected.

I've been thinking about a house rule that you can set the SM of the hands wherever you want, tiny hands to giant hands, but they stay that size forever unless you take a leveled Perk that extends the range of sizes by 1 SM per level. So you can take, um, "Adjustable TK 5" [5] and be able to shift the size of your invisible TK hands from child sized to the hands of a three ton+, 21' tall storm giant. Or from normal sized hands to the size of (the heads of) a 1' tall Discworld imp for some fine manipulation (if you can see what you're doing). Like temperature tolerance, the range itself can't be changed once decided on, except by extending it with more levels of Adjustable TK.

I know, this has damn little to do with the questions of the OP, but I don't think it's worth its own thread, and when you're talking about manipulating hundreds of tiny objects with Area Effect TK, the question of the size of those hands is something to think about.

I think most people assume you can adjust the size however you want, and maybe that's the intent, but if so, regular, non-AE TK can easily make hands big enough to clap an entire skyscraper with one action (you don't need to be strong enough to lift it to do damage), or block the water in a whole slow moving creek (again, you don't need to lift all that water, just counter the force of the water). Or do genetic engineering with enough levels of cinematic/fantasy microscopic vision just by shuffling genes around manually.
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Old 09-08-2020, 12:40 AM   #8
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Re: TK + Area Effect

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I think it is supposed to represent X pairs of hands doing X actions, with X being the number of objects in the area. You do not get +(Infinity) for your grapples. Anyway, the maximum weight is limited by your TK level, so I would require characters to allocate ST to each target for grapples.
That makes the most gamey amount of sense, thanks.

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Originally Posted by transmetahuman View Post
My take:

Take Compartmentalized mind (one power, no separation, blah blah). Divide the total weight you want to be able to affect by (number of CM +1), and buy enough TK to lift *that* much. The compartments can still all work together to lift the total amount.

About the only weirdness I can see is that you can affect multiple objects over a bigger area than you'd normally get for that level of AE - even areas that aren't connected at all (though you'd be limited to 1/n+1 of the total TK ST BL in the areas that don't overlap). Maybe call it a nuisance effect limitation if all instances of TK must share the same area effect region, if you don't want to deal with that.
I very rarely don't take TK without CM. Limiting both to each sounds good and TK further limited to the same area is a great idea. I do like the idea of treating the 'combined' BL as the 'full' ST of TK.

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Originally Posted by transmetahuman View Post
I've been thinking about a house rule that you can set the SM of the hands wherever you want, tiny hands to giant hands, but they stay that size forever unless you take a leveled Perk that extends the range of sizes by 1 SM per level. So you can take, um, "Adjustable TK 5" [5] and be able to shift the size of your invisible TK hands from child sized to the hands of a three ton+, 21' tall storm giant. Or from normal sized hands to the size of (the heads of) a 1' tall Discworld imp for some fine manipulation (if you can see what you're doing). Like temperature tolerance, the range itself can't be changed once decided on, except by extending it with more levels of Adjustable TK.

I know, this has damn little to do with the questions of the OP, but I don't think it's worth its own thread, and when you're talking about manipulating hundreds of tiny objects with Area Effect TK, the question of the size of those hands is something to think about.

I think most people assume you can adjust the size however you want, and maybe that's the intent, but if so, regular, non-AE TK can easily make hands big enough to clap an entire skyscraper with one action (you don't need to be strong enough to lift it to do damage), or block the water in a whole slow moving creek (again, you don't need to lift all that water, just counter the force of the water). Or do genetic engineering with enough levels of cinematic/fantasy microscopic vision just by shuffling genes around manually.
What I've done as a GM is that your TK is either your SM or its SM is based on what SM would belong to that ST (TK100 would be SM+6 hands). Letting someone set it to any SM as part of building the power (aka during character creation) sounds great as a feature. As for being able to change the size of them, I feel like setting them to the largest SM and taking Shrinking limited to TK only makes the most sense to me (mind, I'm assuming Shrinking affects TK). Your perk idea sounds like a good starting point, but maybe a little too good. I'll use it for now to see how it works out. If it ends up too strong, I might have it work like Shrinking where it gets weaker the smaller the SM from max size and you can enhance it to keep it strong (+200% to lose nothing, or 3pts/lvl).
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