Conflicting Disads - Cannot Harm Innocent's and Honesty

Kalzazz · 11-13-2011, 03:03 AM

A situation that came up in game

A character was jumped by slavers, and defended herself in the process knocking out and capturing some of them

The Law is that captured slavers are to be summarily executed

An Honest person wants to follow the law

A person with Cannot Harm Innocent's does not want to hurt people who are not trying to do them serious harm. An unconscious slaver is obviously not trying to do them serious harm

How do you handle such a thing?

Anders · 11-13-2011, 03:24 AM

Make a Self-Control roll for Honesty. If he succeeds, he kills the slavers and feels horrible about it. If he fails, he does not kill the slavers and feels horrible about it. On a critical failure, he drowns himself in the Seine river and his body is later found by the Paris police.

zorg · 11-13-2011, 03:24 AM

This is a prime opportunity for roleplaying - the character has to decide which ideal he values more highly, and then live with the consequences. I don't think you can have a rules-based decision here. As long as the character makes an honest effort to reconcile his disads, any decision he comes up with would be legit, imo.

downer · 11-13-2011, 03:27 AM

Roleplay it. In the end, you will suffer some kind of mental anguish over what you did, but which way you go is up to you. You could go for some kind of random resolution, I guess, but if I were your GM I would prefer you play it out, telling a confidant about your issue, asking you fellow characters for advice. This way, you can make your disadvantages part of your play, and give the GM some hints at how to react to your breach of morals.

Alternately, you could find a loophole. Leave the unconscious slavers somewhere they are bound to be noticed, and have other people "capture" and execute them. This way you wouldn't have to kill them, and wouldn't really be breaking the law, since I presume it doesn't say that the slavers have to be executed by the very person that captured them. Or you could ask another PC to do it for you, since you can't get yourself to.

Sunrunners_Fire · 11-13-2011, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

A situation that came up in game

A character was jumped by slavers, and defended herself in the process knocking out and capturing some of them

The Law is that captured slavers are to be summarily executed

An Honest person wants to follow the law

A person with Cannot Harm Innocent's does not want to hurt people who are not trying to do them serious harm. An unconscious slaver is obviously not trying to do them serious harm

How do you handle such a thing?

Catch 22. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. There is no win condition. All available choices screw the player (unless they get luck and the self-control check for Honesty comes up in their favor); hope the GM doesn't consider it bad roleplay (because you ignored one of you disadvantages) and dock you awarded CP for the session.

jacobmuller · 11-13-2011, 04:34 AM

Sorry, but, "Cannot Harm Innocent's"? They're slavers, caught in flagrante, they ain't innocent...
Only in self-defense, yes, I can see the conflict - hand them over to the authorities. If you can't pass the buck, fight a series of duels with the deal for the slavers being win the fight, win your life - then you get to kill in self-defense...
Oh, and self-defense night allow you to just kill them anyway - letting them go would allow them to harm innocents, possibly your friends, family, etc. You could always have a basic trial - interrogate each "slaver" and see Why he does it. Maybe they ain't all mad-dog evil folk and letting some go would be a good thing?

zorg · 11-13-2011, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

...; hope the GM doesn't consider it bad roleplay (because you ignored one of you disadvantages) and dock you awarded CP for the session.

That would be extremely unfair, imo. The player gets to play out classic angsty drama, woes to the heaven, the whole shebang, and the GM has nothing better to do than to dock CPs? I'd have, well, harsh words over that.

Lord Carnifex · 11-13-2011, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorg

That would be extremely unfair, imo. The player gets to play out classic angsty drama, woes to the heaven, the whole shebang, and the GM has nothing better to do than to dock CPs? I'd have, well, harsh words over that.

Were I GM, if the PC shrugs and says, "I'm gonna..." then by all means dock CPs.

But if the PC displayed some conflict and angst, searched for a compromise, ultimately came to a decision, and then ruminated on it afterward, I'd consider that good roleplaying.

Akicita · 11-13-2011, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Sorry, but, "Cannot Harm Innocent's"? They're slavers, caught in flagrante, they ain't innocent...

Count another one for this opinion.

BrockNicholson · 11-13-2011, 07:10 AM

Cannot Harm Innocents doesn't imply to me that the opponent must be actively trying to harm you at that moment. After all it allows you to start fights. I would think that a person with Honesty from a civilization that believes in summary execution would have little problem carrying out that execution. But then again, that is how I would roleplay the character, not necessarily how your player would.

11-13-2011, 03:03 AM	#1
Kalzazz Join Date: Feb 2009	Conflicting Disads - Cannot Harm Innocent's and Honesty A situation that came up in game A character was jumped by slavers, and defended herself in the process knocking out and capturing some of them The Law is that captured slavers are to be summarily executed An Honest person wants to follow the law A person with Cannot Harm Innocent's does not want to hurt people who are not trying to do them serious harm. An unconscious slaver is obviously not trying to do them serious harm How do you handle such a thing?

11-13-2011, 03:24 AM	#2
Anders Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden	Re: Conflicting Disads - Cannot Harm Innocent's and Honesty Make a Self-Control roll for Honesty. If he succeeds, he kills the slavers and feels horrible about it. If he fails, he does not kill the slavers and feels horrible about it. On a critical failure, he drowns himself in the Seine river and his body is later found by the Paris police. __________________ “When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius

11-13-2011, 03:24 AM	#3
zorg Experimental Subject Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: saarbrücken, germany	Re: Conflicting Disads - Cannot Harm Innocent's and Honesty This is a prime opportunity for roleplaying - the character has to decide which ideal he values more highly, and then live with the consequences. I don't think you can have a rules-based decision here. As long as the character makes an honest effort to reconcile his disads, any decision he comes up with would be legit, imo. __________________ Like a mail order mogwai...but nerdier - Nymdok understanding is a three-edged sword

11-13-2011, 03:27 AM	#4
downer Join Date: Jan 2011	Re: Conflicting Disads - Cannot Harm Innocent's and Honesty Roleplay it. In the end, you will suffer some kind of mental anguish over what you did, but which way you go is up to you. You could go for some kind of random resolution, I guess, but if I were your GM I would prefer you play it out, telling a confidant about your issue, asking you fellow characters for advice. This way, you can make your disadvantages part of your play, and give the GM some hints at how to react to your breach of morals. Alternately, you could find a loophole. Leave the unconscious slavers somewhere they are bound to be noticed, and have other people "capture" and execute them. This way you wouldn't have to kill them, and wouldn't really be breaking the law, since I presume it doesn't say that the slavers have to be executed by the very person that captured them. Or you could ask another PC to do it for you, since you can't get yourself to. __________________ I have learnt silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers. -Khalil Gibran

11-13-2011, 04:34 AM	#6
jacobmuller Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Not in your time zone:D	Re: Conflicting Disads - Cannot Harm Innocent's and Honesty Sorry, but, "Cannot Harm Innocent's"? They're slavers, caught in flagrante, they ain't innocent... Only in self-defense, yes, I can see the conflict - hand them over to the authorities. If you can't pass the buck, fight a series of duels with the deal for the slavers being win the fight, win your life - then you get to kill in self-defense... Oh, and self-defense night allow you to just kill them anyway - letting them go would allow them to harm innocents, possibly your friends, family, etc. You could always have a basic trial - interrogate each "slaver" and see Why he does it. Maybe they ain't all mad-dog evil folk and letting some go would be a good thing? __________________ "Sanity is a bourgeois meme." Exegeek PS sorry I'm a Parthian shootist: shiftwork + out of country = not here when you are:/ It's all in the reflexes

11-13-2011, 07:10 AM	#10
BrockNicholson Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Huntington, West Virginia	Re: Conflicting Disads - Cannot Harm Innocent's and Honesty Cannot Harm Innocents doesn't imply to me that the opponent must be actively trying to harm you at that moment. After all it allows you to start fights. I would think that a person with Honesty from a civilization that believes in summary execution would have little problem carrying out that execution. But then again, that is how I would roleplay the character, not necessarily how your player would.

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