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Old 11-25-2011, 06:46 AM   #21
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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Thanks for the info. Looks quite interesting.
Anything post-Bronze age?
From Dan's comments and the rules in Low-Tech, I think that scale is outdated after the Bronze Age for any hit location that can be covered by something else. For a little while in the early Iron Age some people knew how to make scale, but not any other metal armour, which I guess made scale okay, but once they learned to make mail or smaller pieces of segmented plate or plate, scale is dropped like a hot potato.

The stats for it suck so hard that I doubt anyone would want to use it.

This makes me a little sad for the Byzantines and a few Eastern people who did use it even into the High Middle Ages, but I don't know how to fix it.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:29 AM   #22
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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This makes me a little sad for the Byzantines and a few Eastern people who did use it even into the High Middle Ages, but I don't know how to fix it.
... Time travel? Seriously, you can't help them, it's way too late for that.

There might be materials situations where scale is "less worse" than mail - in that you might have iron you can't draw wire out of efficiently, and you can't make serious plates out of (for segmented etc plate), but you can hammer out half-serviceable scales out of.

I'm thinking having a lot of problem with slag inclusions due to low quality iron - but I'm not sure under what scenario you'd just go ahead and make bad quality scale with it rather than continuing to refine the iron into something serviceable. I suppose if it's a "We have nothing better to work with and we need armour ASAP... but scale just isn't fast to make under any circumstances. :/
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:49 AM   #23
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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... Time travel? Seriously, you can't help them, it's way too late for that.

There might be materials situations where scale is "less worse" than mail - in that you might have iron you can't draw wire out of efficiently, and you can't make serious plates out of (for segmented etc plate), but you can hammer out half-serviceable scales out of.

I'm thinking having a lot of problem with slag inclusions due to low quality iron - but I'm not sure under what scenario you'd just go ahead and make bad quality scale with it rather than continuing to refine the iron into something serviceable. I suppose if it's a "We have nothing better to work with and we need armour ASAP... but scale just isn't fast to make under any circumstances. :/
Byzantines wore what appears to be rather good quality scale or lamellar over mail. Under GURPS rules, there's no reason not to simply wear more mail over your mail*, if you're going to be layering up on that stuff.

*Heard you like mail so I put some mail in your mail so you can mail up your mail while you mail.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:51 AM   #24
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

Primitive fantasy humanoids trying to re-purpose ill-fitting plate armor? Scale-ify All The Things!

This would assume a different head shape, size, horns etc., or else helmets would be the least likely candidates for extensive rework, as compared to tailored torso and limb armor, I'd guess.

Or, well, non-metal scale, of course. If you've got some really hard scales from a creature, and that's still easier to get (and/or better) than proper metal.

Scale could have a cultural significance, too. Priests/warriors of the dragon god etc.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:55 AM   #25
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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Byzantines wore what appears to be rather good quality scale or lamellar over mail. Under GURPS rules, there's no reason not to simply wear more mail over your mail*, if you're going to be layering up on that stuff.

*Heard you like mail so I put some mail in your mail so you can mail up your mail while you mail.
Like I said, some people just can't be helped. Just because real people did it doesn't mean it was something sensible to do, after all. Real people do some crazy things "because that's the way it's done".

I've heard an argument that scale was popular due to heat problems, but as it's usually attached to some sort of quite solid and warm backing material, I think that's a bunch of nonsense.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:01 AM   #26
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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Like I said, some people just can't be helped. Just because real people did it doesn't mean it was something sensible to do, after all. Real people do some crazy things "because that's the way it's done".

I've heard an argument that scale was popular due to heat problems, but as it's usually attached to some sort of quite solid and warm backing material, I think that's a bunch of nonsense.
Could be. Or, of course, layering mail over mail could get you diminishing returns in real life, while adding scale does not.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:27 AM   #27
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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Could be. Or, of course, layering mail over mail could get you diminishing returns in real life, while adding scale does not.
Perhaps their religion forbid wedding mail to mail.
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:53 AM   #28
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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Perhaps their religion forbid wedding mail to mail.
I don't know if I should applaud or boo.

Here, have an appbloo...
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Old 11-25-2011, 11:13 AM   #29
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

Heavy scale and lamellar were worn by the eastern Romans because they offered rigid protection against the maces of their enemies. And layered lamellar and mail would only be found on the heaviest of cavalry due to it's weight and expense. But in that particular theater, the heavy all iron mace was quite popular, alongside picks and warhammers(for the Persians and turks).

I'm not really sure if there's much Eastern Roman armor that is considered "Scale", rather than lamellar.
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Old 11-25-2011, 12:59 PM   #30
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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Heavy scale and lamellar were worn by the eastern Romans because they offered rigid protection against the maces of their enemies. And layered lamellar and mail would only be found on the heaviest of cavalry due to it's weight and expense. But in that particular theater, the heavy all iron mace was quite popular, alongside picks and warhammers(for the Persians and turks).
All true. Still, at 40 lbs. for DR 5/5, I'd think that heavy mail over heavy mail would be significantly superior (36 lbs.; DR 10/6). Granted, it is twice as expensive, but for heavy cavalry, the horses are already much more expensive than this armour.

I really do think that mail over mail ought to be less effective than GURPS suggests. It was rare in reality, presumably for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
I'm not really sure if there's much Eastern Roman armor that is considered "Scale", rather than lamellar.
Same stats in GURPS. Which I'm not sure is right. I think that late TL3 Byzantine lamellar ought to be lighter for the protection it grants than Bronze Age scale.
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