Layerd Armour and other ways of Improving DR

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Calvin

That's assuming you're using the optional rules that require that. But if you are you can just use Heavy Mail, etc, though you'd need a garment to attach it to. But since this is about layering armour we've already got that. The rules call it a pectoral "plate" but don't even require that it be made of rigid armour. And logically there's no reason a properly anchored (like to existing armor) sheet of mail wouldn't work.

If you aren't using those rules then you don't have an abdomen location really.

As for not being able to bend, you would be able to bend and that's why side hits are still an issue. Plate on the front, plate on the back, nothing on the sides.

Stick a two-by-four in your pants and under your shirt such that it reaches from your collarbone. Now touch your toes...

I'm certain that this is not the case. Otherwise you'd have a situation where you couldn't deliberately target the vitals past the plate, but could get there accidentally. The vitals being hit on a 1 out of 1d6 is the entire reason that 1/6th coverage is the minimum required to protect against vitals hits.

You hit the vitals 1/6th the time because sometimes you're lucky and the vitals are inside the bit of torso you stuck your sword in. If the plate is meant to protect the vitals, then it's going to be protecting the vitals.

What happens when the attack comes in at an angle that avoids the armor? People for instance do get shot sometimes in a way that the bullet comes in from above a SAPI plat and angles down into the heart or lungs.

[Calvin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

If you aren't using those rules then you don't have an abdomen location really.

Fair enough, Low Tech Armour Companion also seems to assume it. Though mail, etc, on the abdomen portion.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Stick a two-by-four in your pants and under your shirt such that it reaches from your collarbone. Now touch your toes...

I thought you were visualizing the plate as an encircling band. Not the rigid pectoral plate all the way down to the navel. Though this is still solved by switching from Heavy Plate to Jousting Mail.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

What happens when the attack comes in at an angle that avoids the armor? People for instance do get shot sometimes in a way that the bullet comes in from above a SAPI plat and angles down into the heart or lungs.

I guess, but that's not happening 1/6th the time, that's a crit that's rolled to halve armour, or a 1/6th shot that's had the added difficulty of coming in through the mentioned side gap.

If vitals are 1/6th the larger hit location (chest, torso, abdomen), and that same 1/6th has been covered with armour by someone that knows basic anatomy then the vitals are covered from that direction. Side hits and crits being the exception.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Calvin

I thought you were visualizing the plate as an encircling band. Not the rigid pectoral plate all the way down to the navel.

No, I'm explaining why you can't put rigid armor on the abdomen (and why faulds are a thing).

Though this is still solved by switching from Heavy Plate to Jousting Mail.

I don't think a maille pectoral is a thing.

Any armor that covers all the vitals should cause layering penalties if worn with full torso armor. You are basically talking like a mail apron or vest at this point.

[Calvin]

Do it anyway? Sure, without something sturdy to attach it to its probably not going to work well. But all it takes is an anchoring garment and you can keep it where it needs to be. This is especially true if your backing garment is another piece of armor like in this case. Maybe mail pectorals weren't used but there's no reason they can't be. And strengthening or adding extra armor in vital places certainly was.

edit: it's either 1/6th the torso, or 1/6 of each the lower chest, upper chest, and abdomen. Either way it's less than 3/6. A mail apron is going to cover far more. I'm specifically not describing full coverage mail armour. This is either a DR0 garment with DR# armour sections over the vitals, or regular armor with extra DR in only certain areas. Not an apron.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Calvin

If vitals are 1/6th the larger hit location (chest, torso, abdomen), and that same 1/6th has been covered with armour by someone that knows basic anatomy then the vitals are covered from that direction.

There are a number of miscellaneous small vital things in the torso that wouldn't normally be targeted but can be hit and have bad consequences if hit. It is not clear what the 1/6 chance to hit vitals represents, so either answer is plausible.

[Calvin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

There are a number of miscellaneous small vital things in the torso that wouldn't normally be targeted but can be hit and have bad consequences if hit. It is not clear what the 1/6 chance to hit vitals represents, so either answer is plausible.

Mainly it comes down to how broadly "vitals' are defined. Either way though, it's 1/6 to hit them randomly, and 1/6 coverage to protect them. If something is left uncovered then why does a deliberate attack still hit the plate? Just aim for these uncovered section and laugh at the guy carrying around a useless piece of steel.

And there already is a way put forward to do this actually, and it specifies going through chinks on the plate at -10. Not aiming at separate vitals for some extra penalty for it not being the usual pick.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Mainly it comes down to how broadly "vitals' are defined. Either way though, it's 1/6 to hit them randomly, and 1/6 coverage to protect them. If something is left uncovered then why does a deliberate attack still hit the plate?

Because the miscellaneous small things would not be targeted at -3. 1/6 coverage is basically "plate that covers the heart and nearby veins", which is in fact what you'd target if you're targeting "vitals", but wouldn't apply to targeting liver, kidneys, the lower aorta, and so on, all of which would plausibly be treated as vitals hits.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Calvin

edit: it's either 1/6th the torso, or 1/6 of each the lower chest, upper chest, and abdomen. Either way it's less than 3/6. A mail apron is going to cover far more. I'm specifically not describing full coverage mail armour. This is either a DR0 garment with DR# armour sections over the vitals, or regular armor with extra DR in only certain areas. Not an apron.

It's covering the heart, lungs, liver, stomach and kidneys, at least.

[Calvin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Because the miscellaneous small things would not be targeted at -3.

Sure, but like I said, in the same paragraph pectorals are explained it also explains how to get by them. And if a -3 is randomly targeted 1/6th the time then it follows that a 1/6 doesn't still hit a -10 (which is the penalty to get by the pectorals)

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

It's covering the heart, lungs, liver, stomach and kidneys, at least.

Sure, and and it accounts for 1/6th the lower/upper chest and 1/6th the abdomen. This is explained both by the 1/6 chance to hit the vitals, and the 1/6 minimum coverage in the pectoral plate rules.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Sure, and and it accounts for 1/6th the lower/upper chest and 1/6th the abdomen. This is explained both by the 1/6 chance to hit the vitals, and the 1/6 minimum coverage in the pectoral plate rules.

I can't imagine how such a garment wouldn't interfere with motion if it was layered with full-torso coverage.

I mean, IME, SAPI plates interfere with motion when worn with a full coverage ballistic clamshell (like the MTV) and they only cover chest vitals.