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Old 11-25-2011, 01:51 PM   #31
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
All true. Still, at 40 lbs. for DR 5/5, I'd think that heavy mail over heavy mail would be significantly superior (36 lbs.; DR 10/6). Granted, it is twice as expensive, but for heavy cavalry, the horses are already much more expensive than this armour.

I really do think that mail over mail ought to be less effective than GURPS suggests. It was rare in reality, presumably for a reason..
There are examples of multiple layers of mail being worn in more than one culture. The Chanson de Roland has an instance where three layers being worn. Usama's kazaghand had two layers of mail. It is possible that every mention of double mail in the texts is actually referring to two layers of mail.

FWIW I had trouble finding any solid evidence for Byzantine lamellar beeing worn over mail. Lamellar was the "munitions armour" of the empire. A soldier wouldn't bother with lamellar if he could afford mail.

Last edited by DanHoward; 11-25-2011 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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There are examples of multiple layers of mail being worn in more than one culture. The Chanson de Roland has an instance where three layers being worn. Usama's kazaghand had two layers of mail. It is possible that every mention of double mail in the texts is actually referring to two layers of mail.
Granted, yes. But I wonder whether it's realistic for every layer of the armour to grant full DR. Given that some part of the DR is the padding (presumably you wear only one layer) and some is an abstraction for the ability of some armour to deflect blows and for mail to absorb blows by moving around, I'd expect that a -1 or -2 to DR for the extra layers wouldn't be out of line.

This still makes multiple layers of mail useful, but not massively better than any other type of armour layered over mail. Better, yes, but also more expensive.

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
FWIW I had trouble finding any solid evidence for Byzantine lamellar beeing worn over mail. Lamellar was the "munitions armour" of the empire. A soldier wouldn't bother with lamellar if he could afford mail.
I've seen a lot of it in museums and popular history books. If you say that that's all based on false data, you would be in a better position to know, of course.
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:21 PM   #33
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

There are some Byzantine armours in the upcoming armour loadouts book. This section was the hardest to research and find decent information. All of the main secondary sources conflicted with each other. There is nothing that I could find in the primary sources that supported the argument that lamellar was worn over mail.

Timothy Dawson seems to be the main source that many other secondary sources relied on. He wrote this in his Osprey publication
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An episode from the battle of Dyrrakhion in 1081 recounted by Anna Komnene regarding her father, Emperor Alexios I, shows just how much protection Roman cavalry armour in the period could afford. Separated from the army, Alexios was attacked with lances from one side by three Norman knights. Since Alexios was protected by layers of padding, iron lamellar and possibly also mail, their weapons caused him no injury, but served only to partially unseat him, with the entanglement of his spurs in his horse's trapping preventing him from falling entirely. Another group of Normans charged at him in a similar way from the other side, also driving their spears at his body, yet they only succeeded in pushing him back into his saddle. At this point Alexios made his escape (Anna claims his horse bolted) with several of the Normans' lances still entangled in his epilorikion...
I went back to Comnena's original work and found nothing remotely resembling the above account. This is what she actually wrote about Dyrrakhion
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The battle did not come to an end because the Emperor still maintained his resistance, therefore three of the Latins, one of whom was Amicetas already mentioned, the second Peter, son of Aliphas, as he himself asserted, and a third, not a whit inferior to these two, took long spears in their hands and at full gallop dashed at the Emperor. Amicetas missed the Emperor because his horse swerved a little; the second man's spear the Emperor thrust aside with his sword and then bracing his arm, struck him on the collarbone and severed his arm from his body. Then the third aimed straight at his face, but Alexius being of firm and steadfast mind was not wholly dismayed, but with his quick wit grasped in the flash of an instant the thing to do, and when he saw the blow coming, threw himself backwards on to his horse's tail. Thus the point of the spear only grazed the skin of his face a little and then, hitting against the rim of the helmet, tore the strap under the chin which held it on and knocked it to the ground. After this the Frank rode past the man he thought he had hurled from his horse, but the latter quickly pulled himself up again in his saddle and sat there calmly without having lost a single weapon.
Anna Comnena, Alexiad [IV.6.110]

The first lance missed him completely because his horse moved. Alexios parried the second lance with his sword. The third lance missed because Alexios ducked out of the way. No mention of armour at all, except for his helmet being knocked off his head. He would have survived even if he was naked. She dosen't describe Alexios' armour anywhere else in her work either so I don't know where Dawson gets "Alexios was protected by layers of padding, iron lamellar and possibly also mail"

I kept searching the sources and found another account from a completely different battle 24 years earlier that involved a completely different character, Isaac.

Quote:
Some of our men saw him (they were Scyths from the Taurus district, and not more than four at that) and attacked him with lances, driving in on both flanks, but the iron shafts proved ineffective... Meanwhile he budged in neither direction, for as they pushed him with equal force this way and that, he remained poised and balanced in the middle. To Isaac this seemed a favourable omen, when attacks from right and left both failed to dislodge him...
Michael Psellos, Chronographia [VII.13]

It seems to me that Dawson garbled two completely unrelated accounts, neither of which mention what sort of armour is being worn.

Last edited by DanHoward; 11-25-2011 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:27 PM   #34
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

I've been thinking whether layered armour, given that both layers will not have a deflective effects at once and there is only one layer of padding, ought not have a -1 penalty to the total DR. Especially appropriate combinations could dispense with this penalty at the GM's option.

Does that seem realistic?
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:43 PM   #35
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

Seems like a simple and reasonable quick fix.
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Old 11-26-2011, 01:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

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From Dan's comments and the rules in Low-Tech, I think that scale is outdated after the Bronze Age for any hit location that can be covered by something else.
Here are some medieval examples of scale helmets.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11664
I'm pretty sure there are some in the Maceijowski Bible too.
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Old 11-26-2011, 01:48 PM   #37
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Default Re: [LT] Question about Greathelms

Like the look of those, I'll definitely have to come up with a way to include more scale armor in my current game (probably due to scale mass production).
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