[Mass Combat] A civilization without Armour units (and similar variations)

[Walrus]

It seems that civilization itself couldn't be similar to ours in such rough conditions. Civilization does make roads, dry swamps, clear forests, find plains for fields and so on.

Also every war has a goal. Why one would run a war for little rocky isle?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Perhaps machine guns were never invented. Of course, this means that the hand-cranked Gatlings of the 1880s also never got used.

I'm actually having trouble imagining a world anything like TL8 that doesn't have machine guns. Anyone that knows how a steam engine work could design a repeating firearm, and from there it's a simple matter of making it repeat a lot.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Walrus

It seems that civilization itself couldn't be similar to ours in such rough conditions. Civilization does make roads, dry swamps, clear forests, find plains for fields and so on.

Oh, that civilization is pretty different from ours. But it still has air units, infantry, some navy etc. Not so sure about offensive artillery. What I wonder is how would it fare (in simplified terms) if it faced a human army (which does have them).

Originally Posted by Walrus

Also every war has a goal. Why one would run a war for little rocky isle?

I'm not saying that all the available terrain. But even if the lucrative places are merely surrounded by cliffs, what use is a tank? It can't get where it needs to be most of the time.

[Walrus]

So, they don't have armour and therefore don't have RPGs. Maybe they do have some MPADSes, which can be used as improvised RPGs with little effort but tanks should be surprise for them.

They make wide use of high-explosive projectiles for targeting infantry in cover and air forces. Later LT brings thermobaric weapon and chemical weapons.

Also such reasons like rocky cliff seem farfetched. You should check at least wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_track for not using heavy armour because cross-country ability.

I'm not saying that all the available terrain. But even if the lucrative places are merely surrounded by cliffs, what use is a tank? It can't get where it needs to be most of the time.

And how can it be lucrative if even a tank couldn't get there? There should be very rare and useful materials to be profitable with such expensive delivery.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Walrus

So, they don't have armour and therefore don't have RPGs. Maybe they do have some MPADSes, which can be used as improvised RPGs with little effort but tanks should be surprise for them.

Yeah, I think having (Arm) equipment (or at least easily converting (Air) equipment infrastructure into (Arm) infrastructure is easier than starting Arm infrastructure - and designs! - from scratch).

Originally Posted by Walrus

Also such reasons like rocky cliff seem farfetched. You should check at least wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_track for not using heavy armour because cross-country ability.

And how can it be lucrative if even a tank couldn't get there? There should be very rare and useful materials to be profitable with such expensive delivery.

What's wrong about some places being lucrative and some hard to pass through? It is not necessary for all terrain to be difficult - just for the best paths to the good terrain to be difficult enough for non-walking/non-flying locomotion.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The big reason for tankless warfare is bad terrain; I don't know that zero tanks are used in Afghanistan, but they certainly aren't all that major of a factor. It's hard to see an entire world that's tankless, just because terrain should be more variable than that and it's hard to see the development of TL 8 industry without convenient bulk transport, but it's plenty to look at how the situation plays out.

That's all reasonable, and I generally agree. But:

1. Convenient bulk transport might take place by sea. It did, for a long time before TL8, and it still does in TL8.

2. Take our own Earth. Melt plenty of its ice. Seas rise. How many plains do you still get? And of those you get, how many are swampy enough to be bad terrain for tanks? Just an idea.

[Walrus]

Originally Posted by Michele

2. Take our own Earth. Melt plenty of its ice. Seas rise. How many plains do you still get? And of those you get, how many are swampy enough to be bad terrain for tanks? Just an idea.

So this is not just warfare without tanks. This is warfare in non-conventional conditions. And it depends significantly on such conditions: whether it would use a lot of navy, off-road vehicles, guerrilla warfare, mountain tactics and so on.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Walrus

It seems that civilization itself couldn't be similar to ours in such rough conditions. Civilization does make roads, dry swamps, clear forests, find plains for fields and so on.

Well, the Pacific archipelagoes did have civilizations, and some of them weren't all that keen on roads. Eventually one makes roads, if he sees a point to them.

Also every war has a goal. Why one would run a war for little rocky isle?

Because they both want it? Argentina and Britain did exactly that, a war for a few little rocky islands.

[Michele]

Originally Posted by Walrus

So this is not just warfare without tanks. This is warfare in non-conventional conditions. And it depends significantly on such conditions: whether it would use a lot of navy, off-road vehicles, guerrilla warfare, mountain tactics and so on.

By that token, plenty of the WWII in the Pacific would have to be considered to have been made in non-conventional conditions. Lots of ocean, scarcity of land, most of the land being damn inadequate for vehicles... few tanks, lots of navy, etc.
Evidently one would need to define "non-conventional".

[vicky_molokh]

Force construction specifics for the various hypothetical states:

Base assumption: TL9^, no Battlesuits. All infantry may have Neutralize (Art).

Khæn Warriors/Khæn Mercenaries:
TL9^ in general, TL10^ in airspace tech.
No MBTs or Battlesuits, and very few land vehicles (10% of TS, element count or total budget, no more).
Most infantry, air transport, air combat, and Sky Trooper units are Levy units.
All infantry units Must have the Airbourne Feature.
Their infantry units may have the special feature: Neutralize (F).
Terrain: Jungle and Mountain are common.
All-Weather is common for air units.
Code of Honour: everybody has strict rules of behavior, and are obliged to keep their combat skills at a respectable level - all Infantry and Air units must be Good Quality, and many are counted as Fanatical. Elites, though, are not as common.
Retarded biotech: casualty reduction after a battle is halved.
Instinctive Tactics: groups of Khæn have a Cunning rating equal to average primary skill of all participants in a force, instead of the usual IQ/Per (MC27). Instinctive Tactics are unavailable for Khæn Mercenaries lead by non-Khæn leader(s).

Sirkin Justicariate Defense Force (name subject to change):
TL9^, no Battlesuits and no Navy, and relatively small numbers serve in the military.
Air force limited to 10% of budget, element count or TS, whichever is lower.
All non-support Infantry units must have the Super-Soldier, Troop Quality:Elite, Equipment: Very Fine features. That means their final TS = Original_TS*7, but their price is increased by +600% (+500% if Fanatical), and their Maintenance is increased by +390%. That means they benefit very much from cheap enhancing features, which they often possess and exploit. Neutralize (F/Arm/Air/C3I), Night, Terrain and the like are common options for that.

Tebríthan Expeditionary Guard (name subject to change):
TL9^, but may use Flying Tanks, Battleships and APCs from TL10^, at half TS and same price.
Most forces should be Sealed (60-80% or more).
All heavy Air units (Tanks etc.) must be All-Weather.
Impetuous or Fanatic units are unavailable.
Many land vehicles are Hovercrafts (50%+). Terrain:Desert is a common alternative.

So, what are the less obvious (or obvious but easily overlooked) nuances of engagements involving those kinds of forces - either between each other, or against a generic TL9 force with no battlesuits?