Putting a "backdoor" in protective spells.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Then in that setting magic doesn't exist, and instead something like psionics exists, after all, if magic has natural laws which it obeys, then it isn't magic.

You keep saying that, but GURPS magic in the GURPS settings for it obviously has rules. For one thing, while it may have some sort of genetic or otherwise personal component (Magery), the rest of it can be taught, and new spells researched.

If these things can happen, there are natural laws to GURPS magic in those settings.

I've studied magic for around 40 years. I've studied in the real world, mostly the Western Magical tradition, in mythology, in fiction, and in gaming. It seems to be a very recent belief, starting with some of the more recent new age writers, that magic must be unknowable.

This is really strange, because most societies in the past which had a magical tradition believed that this magic followed laws. Usually these laws weren't easily learned because they were the laws of gods.

Do I believe in real life magic? If you mean something like RPG magic, then no. The magics I studied effected myself internally rather than something flashy. Not that I'd mind being able to do some of the game magic; I would love to have the GURPS healing spells to help my wife. And what geek hasn't wanted to throw a fireball or lightning bolt at the right time? :)

On the other hand my studies have taught me that everything has laws.

And a study of history showed me that very few societies can stay stagnant for millennia. It stretches my suspension of disbelief too far to believe that just because a society discovers magic it will remain the same for millennia. The people who use magic will study it and try to put laws to it. This is how humans work. We are very good at finding patterns; they may be the wrong patterns at first, but eventually some mages will match the patterns to the real world.

Having laws for magic doesn't make it psionics. Perhaps psionics is just poorly understood magic. And yes, I ran a Traveller game with that as one of the premises. Generally in my games magic, psionics, chi, and super powers are really one thing once you look at it correctly. As GM I can define these things as I like.

In your campaigns you can do as you like, and if I'm a player I would obey your rules. However this is an open discussion and you're the one who is attacking me for having the audacity to believe that magic has rules. And I can prove that GURPS magic has rules: just look at all the GURPS books that explain these rules. :)

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by DavidSev

I'm wondering if there's any rules for putting hidden holes in protective spells, such that someone might think they are protected but people who are in the know can bypass the protections with ease.

An alternative way, if you have a skilled magical researcher and some time, is to develop a specialised counter-spell to the specific protective spell in question. There isn't any GURPS RAW for this as far as I know, but it seems somewhat plausible.

Since your target is using a third party to do the protections, it's relatively simple to acquire a castings of the spell to experiment on: just buy them.

In the software analogy, this would be a question of looking for existing, unintentional, buffer overflows and other exploitable features. That analogy won't get you very far, but specialised magic that targets the details of how a given spell works, rather than having to attack the general features of all spells, seems worth a try.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Not particularly, anytime there's any sort of god or otherworldly power/plane involved it's no longer natural laws, that being the defining difference between natural and divine/magical laws.

Then the knowledge becomes knowing how to act to obtain the magical power. Of course, this is something that started with fiction and was extended to games.

I'm not getting involved in discussing your particular personal psychology, that is so far out of bounds that it isn't even funny.

I try not to use excess words. I explained my philosophy for a rhetorical reason. Since you didn't understand when I stated it the first time I will assume I mis communicated my point: I study magic, but I'm not a lunatic. May I ask what you thought was so far out of bounds?

We call it magic when it can't be broken down and needs holistic spells in order to work and in that setting we say it follows divine/magical laws.

You define magic that way. You. Not me, and for the most part, I don't believe GURPS does.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Apparently I totally mixed up the discussion in two different threads, posts on this thread deleted.

On subject, as far as "backdoors" in protective spells go, I usually put in some type of mundane defenses in my settings, it can be anything from eating horseradish immediately before stepping across the boundary to wearing mana dampening leeches.

Researching these types of mundane "backdoors" will depend on character skills and what the GM has decided for the setting.

[Gnomasz]

Originally Posted by DavidSev

I'm thinking if I can find out who he's getting to cast the protections, then I might be able to "persuade" (or mind control) them into adding a back-door for me.

There are no generic back-doors I know of, but there are a couple of options. The easiest one is False Aura which can mess a lot of spells that depend on defining someone as foe. But no professional would depend on solutions so easy to beat.
A. If the protective spells are just cast and maintained:
- Lend Spell or Steal Spell help if protective spells just warn the caster.
- Displace Spell can help if Area Spell Mastery is not in use and you'd want to reduce protected area without dispelling magic.
B. If the protective spells are made permanent by enchantment:
- it's possible (if unlikely) that they don't react on anyone in household because the people working there are marked by some scrying spell. In such a case, you can use Scryfool to "steal" someones "ID."
- Possession and Exchange Bodies are a bit more universal in a matter of "Stealing ID."
- if the people working in the household are marked with Inscribe or something like that to not trigger the protective spells, the caster can just mark PCs as well.

I can't find a way to do it, but I have also an idea of getting Immunity to (Specific Hazard) perk.