Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip...

RobW · 05-12-2019, 03:39 AM

Last night our party found a magical flaming whip. Cool...
My wizard had been saving XP, and on consideration now has Whip talent and this item.

Why is a whip perfect for a wizard?

Low talent cost
Non-metal
With a wooden handle it can be enchanted as a staff (possibly?)
Range of 3, 4, or 5 hexes is perfect for a figure lurking behind the front lines
No DX penalty for intervening figures or distance
Indiana Jones/Link/Spiderman style swings (possibly??)!!

And here is what I believe to be the full variety of possible attacks:

Normal: no DX penalty, 1d-1 damage
Aimed shot to head: -6 DX, double damage, armor penetrating (ie 2d-2 armor penetrating)
Aimed shot to hand: -6 DX, 1d-1 damage and target drops weapon or shield in the hand, (penetrates shields and armor lighter than chainmail)
Neck "lasso": no DX penalty, 1d+2 damage
Arm "lasso": no DX penalty, no damage, and whatever is held by that arm is dropped
Wing "bolo lasso": -6 DX, flyer falls to ground and takes 1d damage
And of course the infamous Body "lasso": no DX penalty, knocks victim down

Thoughts welcome. I think we will go about this pragmatically, with the above as a starting point and then reduce normal whip abilities if they turn out as OP as they seem.

larsdangly · 05-12-2019, 08:50 AM

That all sounds about right to me. The whip is definitely a fun weapon! It's not really game breaking - a combatant with your same stat total and standard melee or missile weapons will probably kill a combatant armed with a whip. But your Indiana Jones will go out in style!

hcobb · 05-12-2019, 09:04 AM

I wouldn't allow bows, whips or even the sling-staff as Staff spell targets.

My nerf for whip as a wonder weapon is to apply the bolo adjustment for neck shots and make the special moves opposed rolls.

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#unusual

luguvalium · 05-12-2019, 09:09 AM

Where there's a whip, there's a way

larsdangly · 05-12-2019, 09:33 AM

All the crazy weapons (whip, lasso, bolo) would be totally fine if they conformed to standard rules for aimed shots and range.

Nils_Lindeberg · 05-12-2019, 11:13 AM

Lasso is just bonkers as written.
It is actually easier to hit an opponent around the neck with a rope and pull the rope taut and start strangling them so severely that they will die within 10 seconds or so than it is to hit said enemy with a thrown spear at half the distance. And said spear will even do less damage that first turn?!?

I would suggest to remove both the missile penalty and change it to a thrown weapon penalty. And on top of that add the aim penalties from a Bola. The damage should then only be applied if you manage an ST vs. ST test. Maybe improved by your mounts ST if you use the saddle in some way to bring down cattle or drag people along the main street.

The only reason to ever use a lasso in a melee fights with medieval weaponry is to take someone alive when that person is heavily outnumbered or when trying to stop a beast from flying or running away.

I would even go so far as to say it is near impossible to Lasso someone's neck and nothing else if said person is aware of you and have a stick in his hand.

And a whip is even more unrealistic. Even if you stand behind a sleeping guard that has his spear in hand it would be literally impossible to get a whip around his neck without entangling the spear as well.

The only forgiving RAW is that GM can deny the lasso effect if the situation doesn't allow it, and I will use that rule heavily unless we are doing high fantasy or larger than life heroes.

And we have only scratched the surface of what you can do with a whip, dual wield, mastery and/or the higher levels of a staff spell with a fine or enchanted whip. :-)

Just the basic damage 1+2 with 3 less required ST for half the talent point cost, makes it an obvious mistake.

larsdangly · 05-12-2019, 12:00 PM

I love that these weapons are in the game, as they add splashes of colorful fun. And the basic scaling of ST and talents for damage is just a matter of balance, so you can hold your own in an arena fight. But what isn't so well engineered is the value assigned to special attack qualities, like tripping and binding and so forth.

RobW · 05-12-2019, 12:34 PM

Yes, TBH I'm feeling psyched about my wizard whipping his way into the action from the safety of the back ranks. Whiiiiiirrr KRAK! I once ran a team through Death Test that included a couple of whip/javelin types and the options available to them set up all kinds of exciting/fun situations.

Plus, this IS a FLAMING whip....!

As a one-off character, as you say, colorful and fun.

OTOH, my wizard, like many, would never be able to learn sword and run up and engage enemies. But he can definitely set up the fighters by knocking down enemies from the safety of 3-5 hexes back, as well as cast spells -- you kind of wonder should ALL wizards be using whips?

I think the suggestion I like best is probably to say, pretend TFT lassos don't exist, and that whips can't do the lasso attacks. Still allows a lot of good but not OP options.

Of course this is a campaign, not a Death Test run, so very different. We'll see! Hopefully -- we concluded the main campaign story yesterday.

RobW · 05-12-2019, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

It is actually easier to hit an opponent around the neck with a rope and pull the rope taut and start strangling them so severely that they will die within 10 seconds or so than it is to hit said enemy with a thrown spear at half the distance. And said spear will even do less damage that first turn?!?

And lasso only requires 8 ST and 1 IQ, so a ST8 DX16 IQ8 munchkin with a lasso can easily float a lasso over your dodging behind/neck/arm literally from across the entire arena, then choke you to death (to be fair, you should be able to escape if your DX is decent), or without save, pull you down or remove your weapon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

And we have only scratched the surface of what you can do with a whip, dual wield, mastery and/or the higher levels of a staff spell with a fine or enchanted whip. :-)

Possibly of interest, here's a short report of a Death Test team including two whip/javelin dual wielders TBH the whips did not feel as broken as I was afraid they would be, although I did restrain myself (eg no whip lasso of bears).

larsdangly · 05-12-2019, 05:26 PM

On the other hand, in my experience it is very rare to have players create characters who mostly use these weapons. And when they do, those characters have as many weaknesses as strengths (and don't last long). What happens when you float your lasso over a foe who immediately takes it off, walks across the arena and skewers you?

05-12-2019, 03:39 AM	#1
RobW Join Date: Mar 2018	Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... Last night our party found a magical flaming whip. Cool... My wizard had been saving XP, and on consideration now has Whip talent and this item. Why is a whip perfect for a wizard? Low talent cost Non-metal With a wooden handle it can be enchanted as a staff (possibly?) Range of 3, 4, or 5 hexes is perfect for a figure lurking behind the front lines No DX penalty for intervening figures or distance Indiana Jones/Link/Spiderman style swings (possibly??)!! And here is what I believe to be the full variety of possible attacks: Normal: no DX penalty, 1d-1 damage Aimed shot to head: -6 DX, double damage, armor penetrating (ie 2d-2 armor penetrating) Aimed shot to hand: -6 DX, 1d-1 damage and target drops weapon or shield in the hand, (penetrates shields and armor lighter than chainmail) Neck "lasso": no DX penalty, 1d+2 damage Arm "lasso": no DX penalty, no damage, and whatever is held by that arm is dropped Wing "bolo lasso": -6 DX, flyer falls to ground and takes 1d damage And of course the infamous Body "lasso": no DX penalty, knocks victim down Thoughts welcome. I think we will go about this pragmatically, with the above as a starting point and then reduce normal whip abilities if they turn out as OP as they seem.

05-12-2019, 08:50 AM	#2
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... That all sounds about right to me. The whip is definitely a fun weapon! It's not really game breaking - a combatant with your same stat total and standard melee or missile weapons will probably kill a combatant armed with a whip. But your Indiana Jones will go out in style!

05-12-2019, 09:04 AM	#3
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... I wouldn't allow bows, whips or even the sling-staff as Staff spell targets. My nerf for whip as a wonder weapon is to apply the bolo adjustment for neck shots and make the special moves opposed rolls. https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#unusual __________________ -HJC

05-12-2019, 09:09 AM	#4
luguvalium Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... Where there's a whip, there's a way

05-12-2019, 09:33 AM	#5
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... All the crazy weapons (whip, lasso, bolo) would be totally fine if they conformed to standard rules for aimed shots and range.

05-12-2019, 11:13 AM	#6
Nils_Lindeberg Join Date: Jul 2018	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... Lasso is just bonkers as written. It is actually easier to hit an opponent around the neck with a rope and pull the rope taut and start strangling them so severely that they will die within 10 seconds or so than it is to hit said enemy with a thrown spear at half the distance. And said spear will even do less damage that first turn?!? I would suggest to remove both the missile penalty and change it to a thrown weapon penalty. And on top of that add the aim penalties from a Bola. The damage should then only be applied if you manage an ST vs. ST test. Maybe improved by your mounts ST if you use the saddle in some way to bring down cattle or drag people along the main street. The only reason to ever use a lasso in a melee fights with medieval weaponry is to take someone alive when that person is heavily outnumbered or when trying to stop a beast from flying or running away. I would even go so far as to say it is near impossible to Lasso someone's neck and nothing else if said person is aware of you and have a stick in his hand. And a whip is even more unrealistic. Even if you stand behind a sleeping guard that has his spear in hand it would be literally impossible to get a whip around his neck without entangling the spear as well. The only forgiving RAW is that GM can deny the lasso effect if the situation doesn't allow it, and I will use that rule heavily unless we are doing high fantasy or larger than life heroes. And we have only scratched the surface of what you can do with a whip, dual wield, mastery and/or the higher levels of a staff spell with a fine or enchanted whip. :-) Just the basic damage 1+2 with 3 less required ST for half the talent point cost, makes it an obvious mistake.

05-12-2019, 12:00 PM	#7
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... I love that these weapons are in the game, as they add splashes of colorful fun. And the basic scaling of ST and talents for damage is just a matter of balance, so you can hold your own in an arena fight. But what isn't so well engineered is the value assigned to special attack qualities, like tripping and binding and so forth.

05-12-2019, 12:34 PM	#8
RobW Join Date: Mar 2018	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... Yes, TBH I'm feeling psyched about my wizard whipping his way into the action from the safety of the back ranks. Whiiiiiirrr KRAK! I once ran a team through Death Test that included a couple of whip/javelin types and the options available to them set up all kinds of exciting/fun situations. Plus, this IS a FLAMING whip....! As a one-off character, as you say, colorful and fun. OTOH, my wizard, like many, would never be able to learn sword and run up and engage enemies. But he can definitely set up the fighters by knocking down enemies from the safety of 3-5 hexes back, as well as cast spells -- you kind of wonder should ALL wizards be using whips? I think the suggestion I like best is probably to say, pretend TFT lassos don't exist, and that whips can't do the lasso attacks. Still allows a lot of good but not OP options. Of course this is a campaign, not a Death Test run, so very different. We'll see! Hopefully -- we concluded the main campaign story yesterday.

05-12-2019, 05:26 PM	#10
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: Wizards, for your consideration, the Whip... On the other hand, in my experience it is very rare to have players create characters who mostly use these weapons. And when they do, those characters have as many weaknesses as strengths (and don't last long). What happens when you float your lasso over a foe who immediately takes it off, walks across the arena and skewers you?