What do you do about one demon?

[Victor Maxus]

I run a 40 point campaign in horror. A lot of my characters do not have a lot of combat ability, but enough if there is enough of them. So far, their big fight was with a werewolf. Between PC's and NPC's there were eight of them. My creatures in this area are not the tough, the Wolf-beast had a 13 strength, and a lot of limitations on damage not involving silver. You can kill it with enough damage otherwise (Like unloading a couple of clips of 9mm into or something), but since the characters are simple folk, and not combat centered, only one person had a weapon to do serious damage, and that is a .357 Magnum with 1 yes just 1 silver bullet. Thus the fight started when three of the characters broke off from the rest of the group. It ambushed them, two of the characters were wounded, but each got a hit on the werewolf, taking some of the damage down. (They used what they had, one had a hobo knife, a girl with a switch blade, and the third picked up a piece of pipe to smack it with.) But the three retreated and the other five came in contact with it. Their plan was to keep the creature occupied until the girl with the magnum could aim and shoot the creature. Well, it did not go so smoothely, there was a lot of all out defense and hits from behind when the wolf was focused on some one else. Four more players got a hit in, two got wounded, but they kept it occupied long enough for the girl to put the shot with aim, extra aim, brace and all out, through the brain of the werewolf and kill it.

It was a fun fight, but this is more based on situation and such. The characters come from humble backgrounds (Apartment Handyman, Farmer Owner, Accountant, Janitor, News Reporter, Hobo and so forth.) They don't go around packing heat or have much for fighting skills. Also, in this situation, they spotted the guy by chance, followed him to a junk warehouse, he changed to his wolf form and made his attack. They were not prepared for the fight, thus making it difficult, despite having eight to one odds.

The point is, that boss fights are not always about stats or numbers. The over all campaign theme has a lot to do with it. (In this case, low point characters, moderately tough creature, in situations where running around with broad swords and AK-47 is not practical.) Also, just the adventure situation, if done right, it can lead to interesting fights because the players were not fully prepared or vice versa.

Final note, not all boss fights need to be dramatic. Take Dracula for example. Quincy was wounded by Dracula's guards and that is why he died. But he just stabbed Drac in the heart and Harker hacked off his head, and it was all over. The 1992 movie does a fairly good job at showing how dramatic the final fight in the book was. (Just ignor the whole Winona Ryder part afterwards).

[Figleaf23]

What about just handwaving that the boss can't fail a death or unconciousness check until at least 1 (?) PC has reached the point of rolling for them too.

[Darekun]

Originally Posted by Harald387

My experience is 'badly'; there's a line where the monster goes from 'sack of hit points getting mobbed by the group and beaten down in a slogfest' to 'unhittable killing machine that the entire group can't take', and I've never quite been able to find the middle ground. Has anyone done that sort of fight and had it go well, with the right mix of danger and triumph and some sort of back-and-forth in combat? What traits make this work?

One of the things that contributes to that "unstable equilibrium" is the way DR works; bosses shouldn't have more DR than lieutenants, making up their defense with HP or Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction(especially IT:DR limited vs something). On the other side, they shouldn't have hefty damage to get through DR, using armor divisors and/or AOEs instead.

For boss active defenses, dodge is boring; try adding two arms with shields.

Bosses should be able and willing to move around. Giving them a mount can help, so the mount can take the necessary Moves, and so the mount's relevant speed can be greater than the boss's dodge.

A modest AOE(relative to the PCs' mobility) can help both penetration and movement, as everybody tries to maximize enemies and minimize allies in the area. This can be something "Champions-style", like a Cone attack to represent a tail sweep. The ability to hurt the lightly-armored PCs(i.e. to not be tanked) can be just as threatening as the ability to hurt the heavily-armored PCs.

An ability with a very high armor divisor, but otherwise suboptimal, can provide the necessary threat of final victory. Even if they only throw it out once, it means the PCs can't just rely on their toughest member to tank indefinitely.

In general, back-and-forth is best done by shifting tactics. There are tactics for causing victory, and then there are tactics for preventing defeat. If the boss sends in a wave of conjured mooks to buy time for healing spells, that's not going to end the fight, but if the PCs don't act it could put the boss well ahead. A boss can also cause the PCs to change their own tactics, for example by switching between a few differently-limited IT:DRs in a rock-paper-scissors fashion, or by moving between terrain types.

"Light sniper support" works very well in GURPS. This is one or a few mooks with ranged attacks, just weak enough that the PCs ignore them to concentrate on the boss. They should have weak damage, but armor divisors. A crit or lucky damage roll can suddenly grab PC attention while being reasonably nonrepeatable, simulating a back-and-forth exchange.

There are also abilities that can contribute, but not in a fun way — in general, a boss should have abilities to make things happen, not to make things not happen. Binding and TK grapples, for example, can provide tactical puzzles, but aren't worth stepping down the action.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Harald387

This quote got me thinking about something our group brought up recently - how GURPS (and not just Dungeon Fantasy, but DF was what we were playing at the time) handles boss monsters. My experience is 'badly'; there's a line where the monster goes from 'sack of hit points getting mobbed by the group and beaten down in a slogfest' to 'unhittable killing machine that the entire group can't take', and I've never quite been able to find the middle ground. Has anyone done that sort of fight and had it go well, with the right mix of danger and triumph and some sort of back-and-forth in combat? What traits make this work?

(This is not a problem solely for GURPS - D&D 4's Solos are also notorious for falling into the 'sack of hit points slogfest' category - but I'm looking for ways to make it work in GURPS)

I believe that alot of it lies in the balance of the numbers, and have spent some time pursuing that math.

That said, it has also allowed me to look very carefully at the situation and consider what is going on.

First, dont take the term 'slogfest' to be a pejorative. If you do in fact want the monster dead, somebody is gonna have to kill it. That means that some one has to 'magic' (Neem or fwakoom) it or hit it.

A fun variant on that is of course the Achillies heel type monster that is resistant to many things except for X. For classic examples, see undead that can only be hit by magical damage and the Pudding/Jelly/Oozes/Slimes that had varrying resistances to different Types of attacks. Up thread was an example, except it revolved around gear (amulet) as opposed to an inherent resistance.

Think about how you want it to play out as you design the monster.

IF you DONT want all your players crowded around him at once, some options are to move the monster quickly (High Move), or give the monster the ability to move the players quickly (Knockback), or consider a missile based encounter. Short term paralysis is also a fun one, but can be a bit delicate in the balancing.

For the unhittable killing machine problem, again, let the math be your ballpark guide (Attack vs Defense, DR vs Expected Damage).

Remember that All of these knobs are at your controll and you can set them with enough subtlety and variance to come up with interesting combinations. Its this variance and combination that, along with tactical considerations, allow you to come build interesting combat encounters. Especially in the case of DF, the genre itself is on your side. Build anything! Justify its Scores however the heck you want!

Finally, Classic Boss fights (1 v Party) have a tendency to be 'swingy' there is no getting around it and there is ultimately no way to prevent it. By swingy, of course, I mean that a few really well laid blows can radically change the outcome of a fight. If the Boss comes out and whacks the party's front line with a few lucky crits, things get dismal fast. Likewise, the party dropping 1's for damage can be frustrating. Variance in the dice distribution is one of the things that makes the game intersting!

Hopefully the party knows when to break it off, if not, you may have to help them along by giving the boss a good reason to break it off. Taking Prisoners (for food or info), Taking Loot (similar to a rust monster), or having some supernatural impermenance or magical leash can all be ways to jerk a Boss out of a fight.

Nymdok

[Fnugus]

One excellent fight came to mind where two relatively low point PC's were going against two large typical fantasy trolls (regenration+fire vulnerability).

Both trolls could take a PC to negative HP with just one hit. The fight ended up being much in the way of running around setting fire to trees and bushes trying to outsmart the trolls. In the end, the fight was one because the bigger troll miserably failed a fright for a fire that sprung up inches away from it's eyes and went unconscious for almost 10 minutes, which was plenty of time to take care of the other one.

I recently ran a group against a single enemy that couldn't be hurt (insubstantiality with affects substantial). This one was one because one PC was smart enough to find something to negotiate with.

[Randover]

One question?

How do you give away players nessesary information for fight the boss?

So far I had trouble that I gave out too little information to do anything, or to much and fight was over in no time.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Randover

One question?

How do you give away players nessesary information for fight the boss?

So far I had trouble that I gave out too little information to do anything, or to much and fight was over in no time.

Foreshadowing.

If the players have been diligent in their investigation of possible threats and interpreted what may have been cryptic information correctly, sure, there is a chance that they might succeed fairly easily. To my mind, that's okay. Rewarding smart thinking, both in and out of character, is not a bad thing.

Also, don't tell the players, but the GM has a literally infinite supply of monsters. If the beat some monsters easily this time, one can allow them to revel in their awesomeness, but the next time some monsters are required, well, one can simply reach into one's neverending bag of creepy-crawlies.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Foreshadowing.

If the players have been diligent in their investigation of possible threats and interpreted what may have been cryptic information correctly, sure, there is a chance that they might succeed fairly easily. To my mind, that's okay. Rewarding smart thinking, both in and out of character, is not a bad thing.

Exactly, there is a reason the stake through the heart, the silver bullet, removing the amulet, the missing dragon's scale over the belly, etc., are such classic tropes.

The best fights I've ran were ones which revolved around the PCs trying to get at that weakness, whatever it was, while not getting killed in the meantime.

Though I do remember one long particular fight which wasn't supposed to be epic, where the HP 15, HT 14 crime boss kept fighting until all the PCs were either down or in full retreat before he collapsed and died from the massive damage they'd done to him.

[Kromm]

As my earlier examples suggest, I'm a huge fan of the "avoid death while trying to strike at the special weakness" approach to boss fights. There are several reasons for this, including:

• It requires thinking. You can't simply walk up and roll dice to make stuff happen. You must evaluate the threat and prepare. You have to fight with careful tactics. You might even have to lose the first time, regroup, and analyze what went wrong.
  
  
• It shifts the spotlight off the fighters. The PCs who got to show off in every earlier battle can't simply settle things by using Favorite Attack with Best Weapon in "wash, rinse, repeat" fashion. They must defer to colleagues with specialized knowledge and weapons.
  
  
• It prevents clone PCs. With enough strange bosses, the PCs will have to be able to deal with things killed only by edged or pointy or blunt weapons . . . or bare fists or the scratch of some hard-to-handle beast . . . or fire or acid . . . or magic or chanted ritual . . . or something odd like singing or incense. This leads to the creation of heroes who must relinquish the spotlight to one another at times.
  
  
• It encourages teamwork. Fighters still have a role: screening their allies who have the specialized knowledge and weapons. The PCs with knowledge provide that in real time. And those with unusual, rarely used combat abilities suddenly find themselves leading the charge.
  
  
• It is dramatic! Adventurers not used to risking their lives on the front lines have to step up. Those who do stand on the front lines may have to sacrifice themselves. And the heroes can't be sure that their plan will work until it does. The certainty of "enough damage will kill anything" is dislodged and sent tumbling into an abyss.

The way to make sure it's dramatic and involves all this planning and specialized lore, and doesn't turn into a TPK, is to make clear from the moment you start the campaign that you intend to reward what Monster Hunters calls "Know Thy Enemy" skills. I like to expand this to various forms of supernatural divination, divine support, obscure spells, etc. The first few times, make the rolls for the PCs and simply tell the players what they know about the boss. Once the players see how knowledge is power in a fight, they will start to do research and make preparations without you shoving it in their face.

[Cadius]

The LEAST memorable boss fights (or battle scenes in general) are those that go on for too long. Once the tactics drop down to "roll dice until death, rinse, repeat" the fight is NO fun for anyone. That's not gaming; that's applied statistics. My (least) favorite example was a D&D game where they were fighting shadows or something that had a 50% miss chance, even if they passed their to hit rolls. It took forever and had no tactical enjoyment at all. It sucked.

If the villain has a critical weakness and is aware of it, then that villain should devote serious resources to protecting and/or hiding it. If the boss is intelligent but doesn't know about the weakness that the PCs are attempting to exploit it, there better be a good reason to ignore repeated attempts to exploit that. Vader failed to recognize the flaws when they started targeting that Death Star exhaust port. Did he have a high rank in Megalomania Disadvantage? He should've, otherwise, he wouldn't have been defeated that day!

I like the idea of puzzles in the death fights, when done right. I've been in games where the players/PCs didn't have the solution or all the pieces of the solution. That was frustrating for all involved.

But the solutions need to be logical. Just dragging out the encounter for the sake of dragging it out sucks. Why were there force-field gates in Star Wars, other than to prolong Qui-Gon's final fight and cut him off from Obi Wan? They opened often enough and for long enough that it wasn't a practical radiation shield. So wth was it for anyway?

Or maybe the challenge isn't in killing the boss, but in what happens next. For example, if the boss is holding a dead-man switch that detonates the bomb (blowing up hostages and/or the building/ship the PCs are in), then suddenly it's not about killing the boss; its about disarming him safely and THEN killing him! And yes, this works in fantasy too, or with dumb bosses. All it takes is a hostage held over a deadly fall by rope held by the boss. Kill the boss or rush him and he drops the rope, killing the hostage.

A smart boss will never face the enemy alone. He's going to let the mooks absorb the damage first! Lackeys are great for doing all that messy combat stuff, "I cannot kill my friend; you, kill my friend!"

An even smarter boss will let the PCs do his fighting for him. The most memorable boss fight I ever played in, the boss was a charmer. We didn't think too much about those magical charm powers. That is, until my thief got charmed with "defend me!" as my first command. Nothing, and I do mean nothing will throw out your party's carefully laid plans faster than having one of the PCs start working towards a back-stab against his friend the wizard. And knowing that "you could be next" makes the tension ratchet up five notches instantly.