Melee weapon skills

[pawsplay]

I'm digging into DF for the first time, and one thing that I notice is that most of the non-magic types have a singular melee weapon skill. Eg. the barbarian has one, and the knight has between one and three. That's neat and simple, and in keeping with the idea of each template being a strong archetype. However, it doesn't quite jibe with other games or the fictional sources, in which strong warrior types are often dangerous with just about anything with a handle.

How do you typical approach this, with regard to DF character creation? Do you spend a couple of points getting minimal skills in various weapons? Do you work mainly from skill defaults? eg. If the barbarian with Two-handed Axe/Mace has to resort to a spare weapon, they go with a one-handed axe or mace, and manage.

[sir_pudding]

For the knight; options 2 or 3 are two and three skills respectively and you cam also take full Weapon Master with its improved defaults. Option one for the Martial Artist is four skills, two unarmed and two armed. The scout and swashbuckler are very much specialists; the scout's melee choices are backup weapons, whereas the swashbucler can take option 2 and two weapon skills.

So this leaves the barbarian, whose weapon skill choices do have pretty good defaults, and who is thematically a character of direct methods besides (and also more about survival than any other theme).

But if you want a master of all weapons, play a knight with full Weapon Master.

[Dalin]

On a lark, I built a full weapon master knight to see how it would play. My sense is that he's not quite as optimal out of the gate as Sir Yvor Gryffyn (from Delvers to Go), but he would still be a worthy addition to a party of 250-point delvers. Indeed, I hope to try him out in an upcoming game.

Heath Quandt

245-point Human Knight

Heath Quandt is a devout warrior in the service of the Lord of Warding. (He wanted to be trained as a holy warrior, but was gently encouraged to focus on his physical talents.) He is well versed with broadsword, knife, morningstar, and throwing axe, but is adept with any weapon he picks up. Indeed, he loves nothing more than to pick up interesting weapons he spots on the battlefield to try them out.

ST 14 [40]
DX 14 [80]
IQ 10 [0]
HT 13 [30]

Will 10 [0]; Fright Check 12 [0]; Per 10 [0]; Basic Speed 6 [-15]; Basic Move 6 [0]; FP 13 [0]; HP 14 [0]

Advantages [95]:
Armor Mastery [5]
Born War Leader 2 [10]
Combat Reflexes [15]
Hard to Subdue 1 [2]
High Pain Threshold [10]
Penetrating Voice [1]
Rallying Cry [5]
Sacrificial Block [1]
Sacrificial Parry [1]
Weapon Master [45]

Disadvantages [-35]:
Code of Honor (Soldier's) [-10]
Compulsive Vowing [-5]
Overconfidence [-5]
Sense of Duty [-15]

Quirks [-5]:
Deferential toward religious authorities and clerics of the Aesir. [-1]
Enjoys picking up and fighting with novel weapons. [-1]
Extremely loud, particularly when laughing. [-1]
His vows are in the name of the Lord of Warding. [-1]
Loves toasting nearly as much as vowing. [-1]

Skills [55]:
Armory (Melee Weapons) IQ+1 [4]-11
Boxing DX+0 [2]-14
Broadsword DX+2 [8]-16
Climbing DX-1 [1]-11; Axe/Mace DX+2 [8]-16
Connoisseur (Weapons) IQ+2 [2]-12
Fast-Draw (axe) DX+1 [1]-15
Fast-Draw (sword) DX+1 [1]-15
Flail DX+1 [8]-15
Forced Entry DX+0 [1]-14
Hiking HT-1 [1]-12
Intimidation Will-1 [1]-9
Knife DX+0 [1]-14
Leadership IQ+2 [2]-12
Shield (Shield) DX+2 [4]-16
Strategy IQ+1 [2]-11
Tactics IQ+1 [2]-11
Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace) DX+2 [4]-16
Wrestling DX+0 [2]-14

Equipment [$3500; 102 lb]:
1 Bandoleer [$60; 1 lb]
2 Small Throwing Axes. 2d+5 cut. [$50; 3 lb]
1 Broadsword. 2d+5 cut; 1d+4 imp. [$600; 3 lb]
1 Clothing [$0; 2 lb]
1 Light Cloth Armor Suit [$150; 18 lb]
1 Light Segmented Plate Suit [$1800; 48 lb]
1 Long Knife. 2d-1 cut; 1d imp. [$120; 1.5 lb]
1 Medium Shield. 1d+2 cr. [$60; 15 lb]
1 Morningstar, Dwarven. 2d+5 cr. [$400; 6 lb]
1 Pouch [$10; 0.2 lb]
1 Personal Basics [$5; 1 lb]
2 Gold Coin (Piece of Eight) [$50; 0.0025 lb]
4 Silver Coin [$20; 0.02 lb]
15 Copper Coin [$1; 0.02 lb]

[corwyn]

I cheat. For DF, I allow all melee weapons to default to any other melee skill at -5 and buy the default off for 5 points per skill (average technique for those with full GURPS). Not very realistic, but...DF. I think it's a fair compromise between GURPS and D&D/Savage Worlds type games.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

I'm digging into DF for the first time, and one thing that I notice is that most of the non-magic types have a singular melee weapon skill. ... in keeping with the idea of each template being a strong archetype. However, it doesn't quite jibe with other games or the fictional sources, in which strong warrior types are often dangerous with just about anything with a handle.

I think this is often do to players mainly sticking with their best weapon which is where they spent the most points. Also weapons cost money so its often better to spend on one good weapon. You can then also get Weapon Bond (whatever best weapon).

How do you typical approach this, with regard to DF character creation? Do you spend a couple of points getting minimal skills in various weapons? Do you work mainly from skill defaults? ...

I'd say use skill defaults. For starting, use one primary skill and have skill skill default at 0 points listed on character sheet. Train on it on off time and put 1 point into it ASAP. If ranged attack is thrown weapon then you want a point in the melee skill. Say main weapon is Two-handed Axe/Mace and Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace), you'd also want to put a point into Axe/Mace. Axe/Mace will let you use the one handed weapons in melee that you have TW skill to use when throwing.

[Anthony]

People raise a single skill because it's by far the most efficient option. If you want to get people to spread out, you really have to do something to make single skill not be optimal strategy, either by limiting the ability to go beyond 8 points in a skill (toss in an unusual background or just straight disallow it) or by allowing raising a group of skills cheaply (say, talent (melee weapons)).

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Anthony

People raise a single skill because it's by far the most efficient option. If you want to get people to spread out, you really have to do something to make single skill not be optimal strategy, either by limiting the ability to go beyond 8 points in a skill (toss in an unusual background or just straight disallow it) or by allowing raising a group of skills cheaply (say, talent (melee weapons)).

I suppose you could bring back skill costs from 3e where costs go up to 8 points per rank.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by Anthony

People raise a single skill because it's by far the most efficient option. If you want to get people to spread out, you really have to do something to make single skill not be optimal strategy, either by limiting the ability to go beyond 8 points in a skill (toss in an unusual background or just straight disallow it) or by allowing raising a group of skills cheaply (say, talent (melee weapons)).

Assuming your primary weapon isn't simply always available, or always optimal, is that the best strategy? It seems like you want enough spread to have at least a default with virtually anything.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by Anthony

People raise a single skill because it's by far the most efficient option. If you want to get people to spread out, you really have to do something to make single skill not be optimal strategy, either by limiting the ability to go beyond 8 points in a skill (toss in an unusual background or just straight disallow it) or by allowing raising a group of skills cheaply (say, talent (melee weapons)).

I don't think that's the way to go. Just present challenges that are better served using different weapon types. Arrows aren't best against skeletons. Also if the loot is a magic weapon that is not the one they use, they may want to train in that. Say that Two-Haned Axe weilding barbarian suddenly gets a magic fine broadsword thats got magic enhancements +1 skill and +1 damage. Then make sure selling it yields far lower price than what its worth.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Assuming your primary weapon isn't simply always available, or always optimal, is that the best strategy? It seems like you want enough spread to have at least a default with virtually anything.

It doesn't have to be always available or optimal. If it's available, say, 80% of the time then it's still optimal. A scout dealing with skeletons or homogeneous foes can use cutting arrows, and an edged rapier at skill 20 with weapon master will still be better than mace at 14 even in those cases. That's offensively, not just for the parry.

If you want weapon generalization then don't allow weapon master at the "one weapon" level and raise weapon defaults to the [1] level as a free bonus.