[Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Sorry one quick response to one point you made

Yes sorry I should have been clear the $2m figure is more what I estimate would be the company I work for's "huh ok sound interesting let's start thinking about how this would work" figure.

I not sure how it would scale really, a bigger place might ask for more if the interfered with business was greater, but equally such a larger company many be in a position to do this without effecting as much of their own ongoing business as mine would.

Ok, $2,000,000 is, surprisingly, not actually a lot of money in some contexts. Like making toys for the ultra-rich, who really need more money than that to be truly ultra-rich. Vargas is merely comfortable, by the successful drug baron standards.

Well, that, or he has much of his fortune tied up in other things than hobbies, as the GM has declined to speculate on whether Vargas might control other groups of Knight Templar Cartel remnants in other Mexican states and even have other homes somewhere far south of Chihuahua. In any case, if he does, let's assume that those places have their own crazy hobby projects and we are stuck with 'merely' $50 million per year in his private, personal income allocated to his Cost of Living in Chihuahua, where he has been fighting a war comprising mostly occasional targeted raids, for the past two or three years.

If we assume that Vargas has spent about 1% of his personal household budget on this project over the past five years, sometimes being consumed by interest and contracting for a lot of design and prototyping work one month, sometimes spending nothing because he had more important concerns, we get $2,500,000 as the high end of his expenditure.

Any equipment, tools, machinery or other capital investment which is actually useful for running a DTO or mercenary group can come out of the larger, business-related operating revenue pool. The Knight Templar Cartel have a motor pool of trucks, one or more automobile chop shops and a workshop with everything needed to make improvised APCs like the most professional versions of these. So Vargas doesn't have to spend his personal money on plasma cutting torches, hydraulic presses or such tools.

He might not even need to pay the salaries and living expenses of machinists, mechanics or other such people who can work on his project. Well, that is, as long as the employees are also able to work at least a light workweek on tasks important for either generating further revenue (changing plates and painting stolen cars to use for smuggling) or their mission of fighting the enemies of the Sinaloa cartel (making vehicle armour, welding them on trucks, repairing trucks and APCs, etc.).

Any equipment primarily or solely useful for his 'Black Knight' project, as well as the salaries and expenses of anyone hired just to work on that, would have to come out of the personal finances, though.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

3). Ultimately because none of the owners* of the company are huge medieval armour buffs the attitude would be, "OK look this chap's got money and we like enthusiastic customers with money, but this project is hassle and headache and takes us out of our professional comfort zone (as well as possibly private comfort zones!)". So it would very much be on our terms and over as quickly as feasibly possible .

Clearly, you are not the company Vargas is looking for. :-)

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Well unless the market for this spec fo plate armour suddenly explodes!

I imagine that it would be very important to Vargas that no one was allowed to have armour identical to his. So, confidentiality agreements, exclusivity clause, etc.

Of course, that would only apply if Vargas could get someone with decent Diplomacy, Finance, Law (Commercial) or Merchant skill to handle the actual interaction with the contractor or vendor. If he talks to them himself, he may just assume that it's a given that he has exclusive right to 'his' idea for an armour and react to any suggestion that anyone else might obtain one from the same supplier with threats of ultraviolence.

Which reaction would be one of the many reasons one should endeavour never to get into business with crazy drug-dealing warlords.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

*sadly the finance manager bouncing up and down in excitement would not get the casting vote on this ;-)!

Ah, but whoever Vargas eventually found had to be a company run by someone whose immediate reaction was glee. No other way, really, as I can't see anyone else sticking with such a scary, sketchy client and near-impossible requirements, constant meddling input, etc.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

What kind of material is better at shock absorption than ballistic fabrics?

And how heavy and how effective is an active cooling system? Do commercial examples I could look up exist? Maybe for high-end environment or HazMat suits or something, but most examples of such suits I've seen are either disposable or at least not made from anything too nice, in case it has to be thrown away due to contamination.

Here are some examples, found by searching for "personal cooling system." These all use water, either by evaporation, which probably won't work well under armour, or with a backpack filled with ice that is melted by water pumped through tubes in a garment.

A more ambitious method would combine padding and cooling. Elastic bladders filled with air are excellent shock-absorbers. I think that's what the 3e High-Tech item is using. They need to be form-fitting, and re-using parts of an anti-G-suit would arrange for that. Circulating cold air through the air-padding would keep the wearer cool. You'd have a backpack of ice with a heat exchanger to cool the air. The trick is maintaining the right pressure, while circulating the air, while the wearer is moving around and getting hit, which will produce major pressure spikes in the air circulation system.

I think, on the whole, keeping padding and cooling separate is going to be more reliable. The cooling garment goes next to the skin, and the air-padding on the inside of the armour.

Storing the armour in a refrigerator when it's not being worn also gives you some passive cooling, and may demonstrate just how loco these people are to the locals. It might even worry the PCs, as they encounter a Black Knight covered with frost, and moving as if he isn't feeling the heat at all.

Addendum: there is much better CAD software than AutoCAD out there. AutoCAD is well-known because it is cheap, by industry standards, and thus has lots of small-business customers. Major engineering shops use SolidWorks or SolidEdge, or NX or CATIA if they're doing really big stuff.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I agree, moreover I would say's there likely to greater positive correlation between the two than just random chance within the general population.

And hell I cite our own hobby, I have a mate (through roleplaying) who's primary source of income is designing and making kit for films, but he also dabbles in blacksmithing, and he's an armour / weapons nut etc, etc.

Now his background is design, so he knows his way around CAD. Now he doesn't have every skill you need, but he got some. Moreover I bet he has a greater than population avenge chance of knowing someone with the missing ones!

Now ok my mate seems to be peculiarly apt example, but given the overlap of interest and drives I can't image he's the only one in the world!

He sounds ideal, in fact. He wouldn't be looking for a fictional job for an imaginary psychopathic warlord?

I could promise a salary of about $100,000 to $120,000 per year, tax free, paid in your choice of cash or monthly deposit into a Carribbean island banking institution of your choice.

If he has professional certifications and/or college degrees, this might affect his base salary. A mechanical engineer (or another applicable field of engineering), metallurgist or materials scientist might probably negotiate a substantially higher salary, as might someone with a professional certification as a machinist/fabricator from a respected institution, particularly if this involves a multi-year learning program and/or a professional apprenticeship working with CNC machines, programming AutoCAD, etc.

Also free room and board, an open bar on site, comped access to all the negotiable affection he could handle* and the occasional party, complete with the socially acceptable indulgences in complimentary chemical refreshment**, to include cocaine, methamphetamines, various unlicensed copies of prescription medicines (Oxycontin, Viagra, Vicodin, Fentanyl, etc.) and, of course, Mexican ditch weed. Possibly imported New Mexico medicinal cannabis and artisanal weed from Nevada, for the discerning connoisseur.

Probably a 'company car' (changes often) and pretty free access to work supplies for personal use, as well as the occasional lavish gift when Vargas is happy with something he is doing. I'd say that benefits which actually directly save money, as opposed to being things he never would have bought himself, doesn't need and may or may not want, would add another $50,000 to the total value of the compensation on a yearly basis, over and above the room and board.

*Consent not guaranteed. Not just in a general, philosophical sense that all prostitution may or may not involve coercive consent by definition, but there is an excellent chance that these particular sex workers were kidnapped somewhere or bought from their Central American migrant family and forced into the work. I realise that this may be a deal breaker for many people, but it's not as if the kidnappings occur at Vargas' home and in order to learn about this, someone would have to make a point to earn the trust of the 'party girls' who hang about there and then question them about their pasts.
**Vargas frowns on drug use during work hours, at least for anyone whom he is paying, though he doesn't seem to apply this rule consistently to himself or, sometimes, particular favourites whose only job is intimidating, hurting or killing people. This means that many of his men avoid indulging during exercises with him, but otherwise seek out assignments where he will not see them, so they don't have to be sober all day.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Here are some examples, found by searching for "personal cooling system." These all use water, either by evaporation, which probably won't work well under armour, or with a backpack filled with ice that is melted by water pumped through tubes in a garment.

Wow. Thanks, those look futuristic and nice. My new dream is to obtain one of those and wear it always, at least whenever the local temperature is above freezing.

None of them seem to consider the weight of the vest itself worthy of note. It must weigh more than just a wicking undershirt, as there's this tube system involved....

0.5 lbs.? 1 lbs? 2 lbs? 3 lbs.?

Originally Posted by johndallman

A more ambitious method would combine padding and cooling. Elastic bladders filled with air are excellent shock-absorbers. I think that's what the 3e High-Tech item is using. They need to be form-fitting, and re-using parts of an anti-G-suit would arrange for that. Circulating cold air through the air-padding would keep the wearer cool. You'd have a backpack of ice with a heat exchanger to cool the air. The trick is maintaining the right pressure, while circulating the air, while the wearer is moving around and getting hit, which will produce major pressure spikes in the air circulation system.

I think, on the whole, keeping padding and cooling separate is going to be more reliable. The cooling garment goes next to the skin, and the air-padding on the inside of the armour.

The combination sounds failure prone. Let's minimise R&D requirements and buy off-the-shelf whenever possible. Also, he might not want to wear the cooling system at all times, for example when sparring in the freezing temperatures which can occur in winter.

Of course, no matter the outside temperature, armour eventually causes overheating by removing much of the natural evaporation and air circulation that humans tend to rely on.

Sounds like a cooling system might be outside the budget of sicarios trying to impress their boss, at just over $1,000, but it should be affordable for everyone else.

Originally Posted by johndallman

Storing the armour in a refrigerator when it's not being worn also gives you some passive cooling, and may demonstrate just how loco these people are to the locals. It might even worry the PCs, as they encounter a Black Knight covered with frost, and moving as if he isn't feeling the heat at all.

That does sound cool. Of course, the daytime temperatures are 62 °F (16.5 °C) to 72 °F (22 °C) at the time in February when the PCs are there. Nights are mid-40s °F to mid-50s °F (7-13 °C). They're predicting 80+ °F (26-30 °C) over the next weekend, though, so that's nice.

Well, Chase Taylor (my PC) thinks it's nice, being used to balmy 'Bama weather and disliking the cold. I don't really know what the other PCs think about it. Special Agent Danny O'Toole or Dr. Michael Anderson might consider even temperatures in the 60s °F dangerously hot for February, having grown up in the frozen North (Boston, MA, and New Haven, CT, to be precise). Though, to be fair, O'Toole, at least has been working about an hour's drive from our mission area, in El Paso, TX, the past two years, so he ought to be used to the local climate. Agent Ilana Rubio is a Californian, but also locally adapted.

Originally Posted by johndallman

Addendum: there is much better CAD software than AutoCAD out there. AutoCAD is well-known because it is cheap, by industry standards, and thus has lots of small-business customers. Major engineering shops use SolidWorks or SolidEdge, or NX or CATIA if they're doing really big stuff.

Duly noted.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Now that's a really good idea. Not either/or modern CNC/CAD/3D printing or traditonal blacksmith and armoury skills, but a team familiar with both.

It also allows for an exotic NPC, maybe an apprentice or journeyman SCA-legal armourer from a speciality workshop in Eastern Europe who was so fired up by the project that he allowed himself to be convinced to move across the world, even knowing that he'd be working with some scary people.

Not a bad dude, perhaps, though perhaps someone a bit obsessive, certainly not risk-averse, adventurous and, very importantly, extremely into one or more of historical reenaction/HEMA/SCA/LARP-ing/RPGs/historical and fantastical fiction, movies or TV.

Having someone who groks armour and someone who can handle the high-tech alloys and forming in the same place would make things easier.

Depending on their COMSOC policy, that avoids the need to send detailed sets of photos and measurements of the boss and his henchmen internationally. But again, with their budget, they can afford to ship a set of full body casts around the world and find someone who accepts polaroids with the Special Customer's face missing.

There are some videos of Hatian fencing with sharp machetes (complete with washing scratches with rum) under the name Papa Machete.

There might be some issues around face, shoulder, and breast armour and preferred ways to shoot from the shoulder. I would imagine that the inner circle would get them sorted out, but it might give random penalties to some of the hangers-on who just have armour because it looks badass and keeps the boss happy and never imagined wearing it on a raid.

I don't shoot, but on my breast-with-fauld the roll at the arm opening sits just where I would want to set the butt of a rifle. Some 16th century firearms had butts designed to rest against a breastplate.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

None of them seem to consider the weight of the vest itself worthy of note. It must weigh more than just a wicking undershirt, as there's this tube system involved....

0.5 lbs.? 1 lbs? 2 lbs? 3 lbs.?

Sounds like about 1lb to me.

Of course, the daytime temperatures are 62 °F (16.5 °C) to 72 °F (22 °C) at the time in February when the PCs are there. Nights are mid-40s °F to mid-50s °F (7-13 °C). They're predicting 80+ °F (26-30 °C) over the next weekend, though, so that's nice.

I think of Mexico as being horribly hot (over 70 °F) all the time, but clearly this is wrong. Just most of the time...

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Having someone who groks armour and someone who can handle the high-tech alloys and forming in the same place would make things easier.

Depending on their COMSOC policy, that avoids the need to send detailed sets of photos and measurements of the boss and his henchmen internationally. But again, with their budget, they can afford to ship a set of full body casts around the world and find someone who accepts polaroids with the Special Customer's face missing.

True, but dealing with everything at one remove, where the parties may not be truly grasping everything the other is saying, has got to be frustrating. And who is to say that Vargas or whoever is elected to handle speaking with contractors on his behalf, is going to have the understanding of armoury, human ergonomics, materials or the technology involved to know how to communicate all his concerns, desires and requirements?

It might well be worth it to have two guys who understand the process, requirements and technology in house, with them being in charge of deciding what can be done on site, what needs to be ordered as off-the-shelf components, what must be custom-made and what is going to require specialised design or even R&D beyond what they can do, before they can even approach someone about manufacturing it.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

There are some videos of Hatian fencing with sharp machetes (complete with washing scratches with rum) under the name Papa Machete.

If you think it's similar to what northern Mexican or Central American knife-fighters do, by all means speculate in the Jade Serenity martial arts thread as to the proper representation style of swordfighting developed from watching swordfights on TV, traditional knifework, military HTH and an eclectic mix of influences from other martial arts, including FMA, Combat Sambo, TKD and others.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

There might be some issues around face, shoulder, and breast armour and preferred ways to shoot from the shoulder. I would imagine that the inner circle would get them sorted out, but it might give random penalties to some of the hangers-on who just have armour because it looks badass and keeps the boss happy and never imagined wearing it on a raid.

I don't shoot, but on my breast-with-fauld the roll at the arm opening sits just where I would want to set the butt of a rifle. Some 16th century firearms had butts designed to rest against a breastplate.

This is a good point. Vargas' plate harness has to allow him to wield any firearm up to a GPMG, standing, moving, prone, kneeling and sitting.

As the armour gets cheaper, acceptable performance becomes 'being able to shoot an AK or AR-15 from the shoulder, at least', though I expect that there will be a temptation to deal with mobility, flexibility and heat concerns in the traditional way of soldiers everywhere, by leaving the limbs, neck and abdomen lightly covered or even bare.

Vargas is liable to make any sicario who shows up in armour wear it through all the exercises that day. The proper way to impress him would be to be not only buy a cool suit of armour, but to be tough enough to do four hours of cardio, combatives, land navigation, defensive driving, small unit drill, MOUT and patrolling exercise in your armour, even in the summer heat.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Sounds like about 1lb to me.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by johndallman

I think of Mexico as being horribly hot (over 70 °F) all the time, but clearly this is wrong. Just most of the time...

As did I!

I mean, when do you ever see a scene in a movie or TV show set in Mexico without the blazing sun, sunbaked deserts or bright beaches, blue skies and blue ocean, with heat mirages everwhere?

So when I looked up the weather in the Juarez Valley on the date and time when the PCs arrived there, I was shocked to discover that the heat was about the same there as it was here in Iceland on that fairly cool day.

Of course, Juarez Valley being 3,000-4,000 feet above sea level doesn't help as far as heat is concerned. Walk up the nearby mountains and you might get frost in the night time. Get down from the highlands and it gets a lot warmer.

That being said, summers get very hot there. Dry heat, though. Still enough to make the thought of a full, enclosed suit of plate over ballistic fabric pretty daunting. Maybe acceptable for HT 14+ supersoldiers, but not so good for regular mortals. They might want to go with light or no limb covering, at least in the summer.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That being said, summers get very hot there. Dry heat, though. .

In the deserts yes. In the coastal jungles around Yucatan no. It's a biggish country.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In the deserts yes. In the coastal jungles around Yucatan no. It's a biggish country.

'There' referred specifically to the Juarez Valley mentioned above the sentence, the climate and weather of which I researched for the campaign, not Mexico in general, which I understand is very large and varied, yes.