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Old 11-24-2016, 05:14 AM   #11
Bruno
 
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Is OBscure able to inflict penalties beyond the -10 for being totally blind?
It doesn't explicitly state that you can't buy it past ten levels, but it does say "Ten levels will block the sense completely." An attacker who is already Blind can't use Vision to target - that's what having the Blindness disad means. The blind person has to make Hearing-4 rolls every second to figure out which hex you're in and attacks at -6 at random hit locations, just like someone attacking an invisible target or someone attacking with their eyes closed (after a little practice to work off the additional -4 penalty with being blind when you aren't normally blind - I'd call it a perk).

If you want to affect blind people, you Obscure hearing, because that's what realistically they're going to be using to try to guess where you are in combat. That's not Extended, because it's not another kind of Vision, it's a whole other Obscure advantage.
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Old 11-24-2016, 05:19 AM   #12
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

I'd note that someone who's creating Darkness, 2yd radius or somesuch effect probably qualifies for an Environmental limitation on their Obscure. The net darkness penalty can't exceed -10. Going from bright light to total darkness is 10 levels of Obscure, but going from -8 twilight to total darkness is only two levels of Obscure. I've called it Obscure 10 (Environmental, Darkness, -30%) before (plus usually Defensive).

Obscure, Chameleon, Silence, and Invisibility are a big ol' mess though, and should be merged and harmonized. That's a separate thread though.
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Old 11-24-2016, 07:33 AM   #13
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

Why does everyone always get stuck on names? The effect of IT:Blur is that you have a flat percentage chance of not getting injured. Yes, some of the justifications for this have to do with being difficult to target - but plenty of others don't. An imperfect Missile Shield, automated point defense, "flickering" Insubstantiality, and so forth are all examples of justifications where a simple to-hit penalty would be inappropriate. I went with Blur because it's short and relatively to the point, but that was clearly a mistake.

Please, ignore the name and give me some advice/feedback on the mechanics.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post

Please, ignore the name and give me some advice/feedback on the mechanics.
Some of us did.
I wouldnt go with IT:DR as I dont feel its a fair comparison. I would base it off Insubstantial instead.
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Old 11-24-2016, 08:56 AM   #15
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

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Some of us did.
I wouldnt go with IT:DR as I dont feel its a fair comparison. I would base it off Insubstantial instead.
Insubstantial isn't priced fairly - it's immunity ability should have a price of 0.8*Infinity, thanks to rendering a character immune to a Very Common class of threats. Insubstantial (Can Affect Substantial +100%, Can Carry Objects +100%, Partial Change +100%) is [320]. It includes Walk On Air [20], Permeation (Everything) [80], and Obscure Sound 10 (Defensive +50%, Extended +20% (Sonar), Stealthy +100%, Self Only -5%*) [53], as well as Immunity to Threats (Physical -20%). With [153] accounted for, that means ItT (Physical -20%) is [167], putting the price of ItT at roughly [210] (which would actually give a cost of [168], but whatever). So, we've got a price for an unfair Advantage, but how do you limit Infinity to Less Than Infinity? I guess we could use Unreliable for the 6-9-12-15 progression**, but that Limitation has never really sat right with me. Considering the above "Infinite" price is roughly appropriate for a 96% or so miss chance under my system, I think the IT:DR route gives decent results.


*Not a fair price for that Limitation IMO, but RAW from Sorcery. Note also that this may also have additional levels of Extended +20%; each such is [+4] to price.

**EDIT: Looking at Unreliable, it actually does a 5-8-11-14 progression, for whatever reason. It puts 5- at [42], 8- at [84], 11- at [126], and 14- at [168]. Yeah, I'd totally spend nearly enough points to be invisible (Obscure 10) for less than a 5% chance at being immune to an attack...

Last edited by Varyon; 11-24-2016 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Please, ignore the name and give me some advice/feedback on the mechanics.
The feedback is the mechanics is not inline with GURPS 4e does things. Obscure is. Also what your mechanics are closer to GURPS 3e's Passive Defense that was removed from 4e except for Shield Defensive Bonus for a reason.
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Old 11-24-2016, 10:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
The feedback is the mechanics is not inline with GURPS 4e does things. Obscure is. Also what your mechanics are closer to GURPS 3e's Passive Defense that was removed from 4e except for Shield Defensive Bonus for a reason.
What do you mean by that? GURPS does things however you want it to do things. If you want a mechanic where something has a % chance to miss, regardless of source, then you make one.

Personally Varyon, I think this is very good (I would, because I think I may have started the idea in a thread from a while back), it just needs the right kind of character.

I don't have any real suggestions for changes, because I think it's pretty complete.
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Old 11-24-2016, 11:09 AM   #18
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

Varyon, it's a cool idea, but tell me if I'm wrong in thinking this is basically giving the target an extra dodge, with a preset dodge score, against any attack. If so, I'd look into limiting Altered Time Rate. In no way whatsoever is "defensively rolling to not-have-been-hit" anything akin to what Obscure does mechanically, so I'd avoid that like the plague. I'd alsoavoid using Insubstantial for many of the same reasons you stated, plus that in a game where insubstantiality occurs naturally (e.g., ghosts, demons, spirits, etc.) the entire build breaks down.

So yeah, I'd take a look at ATR and a ton of limitations.
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Old 11-24-2016, 04:29 PM   #19
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

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Originally Posted by Wavefunction View Post
This kinda seems to be missing the point, to get the kind of effect the OP wants you need something like what the OP suggested. It's a really cool concept, and perfect for a lot of different powers, and I don't believe Varyon was specifically proposing it for a literal blur effect, just a general advantage that gives things a chance to miss, which is great for falling boulders, etc. and makes this the no. 1 contender I've seen so far to represent the defensive powers of defensive powers of a probability manipulator that I've been working on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Why does everyone always get stuck on names? The effect of IT:Blur is that you have a flat percentage chance of not getting injured. Yes, some of the justifications for this have to do with being difficult to target - but plenty of others don't. An imperfect Missile Shield, automated point defense, "flickering" Insubstantiality, and so forth are all examples of justifications where a simple to-hit penalty would be inappropriate. I went with Blur because it's short and relatively to the point, but that was clearly a mistake.

Please, ignore the name and give me some advice/feedback on the mechanics.
I'm down with that. But this seems like a rehash of Passive Defense...and there was a reason that was ditched. A penalty to hit works better in my opinion for 4th edition rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
It doesn't explicitly state that you can't buy it past ten levels, but it does say "Ten levels will block the sense completely." An attacker who is already Blind can't use Vision to target - that's what having the Blindness disad means. The blind person has to make Hearing-4 rolls every second to figure out which hex you're in and attacks at -6 at random hit locations, just like someone attacking an invisible target or someone attacking with their eyes closed (after a little practice to work off the additional -4 penalty with being blind when you aren't normally blind - I'd call it a perk).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellboy View Post
Is OBscure able to inflict penalties beyond the -10 for being totally blind?

Does it do anything at all to an attacker who is already blind?

If it can, then conceptually is this more like "I see him in the wrong place" vs "I can't see him and I am relying on my other senses and guesswork" ?

Would blind people have an advantge in that case since they can't get beyond -10 because they aren't relying on the affected sense?

But if it affected blind people too would that be a kind of cosmic? Like it actually Obscures their ability to guess your location?
It does not say you can't buy it past 10 - and in fact in my latest article I clarifies that. Even the limit I suggested (20) isn't really a hard limit. I've always thought that Obscure Vision 10 vs. Invisibility was a no brainer. For about the same points you end up with an invisibility field - if you read Obscure's level limit as a hard limit.
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Old 11-25-2016, 03:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: Injury Tolerance: Blur

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the same thing as the ninja clone trick?
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