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Old 08-07-2016, 12:32 PM   #11
Bruno
 
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Default Re: [Powers] Duplication Limitation (Cannot all be in the same place at the same time

Duplication has the weird quirk that your gear does not get duplicated. Not even your basic modesty clothes!

Doubling your combat actions via Duplication requires an extra investment in gear that you need to carry around when you're not using Duplication.

The part where you can stand in multiple hexes I think balances the part where you can't just all stand in one hex and spam actions on one thing, so that's more OK. Unlike Altered Time Rate you aren't performing separate turns in sequence - having 10 duplicates doesn't pick a lock faster.
You have to rely on a task being one where many-hands-make-light-work, rather than too-many-cooks-spoil-the-broth sorta thing.

It's definitely not as good as Altered Time Rate + Extra Life. I'm even comfortable with the whole package being cheaper than ATR unmodified, because people can attack (and kill) your "ATR" levels with simple sticks and swords, which you can't do with actual ATR. It's suggested periodically that a player can take disadvantages or reduce attributes and/or advantages to make up the points for Extra Life in an emergency. Exploding a level of ATR certainly qualifies.

If you can't be in the same place, you lose even the ability to combine efforts on the same task, and the ability to even be simple terrain hazards for enemies. It's handy to have your redundant backups have to be separated - it prevents single-character "party wipeouts" since they're not likely to get caught in the same problem.

But you still need extra gear for each dupe.
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Old 08-07-2016, 05:06 PM   #12
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [Powers] Duplication Limitation (Cannot all be in the same place at the same time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seneschal View Post
Yes, that's it exactly. However, distance can make the ability combat-viable, so long as one dupe is on overwatch with a scoped rifle, 300m away. I'd like to keep it useless in combat, so... (see below).
I'm confused by this last statement.
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Old 08-07-2016, 08:58 PM   #13
chandley
 
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Default Re: [Powers] Duplication Limitation (Cannot all be in the same place at the same time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Kidnapping one dupe would not generally allow a villain to force you to merge
My apologies, Im speaking to the limitation proposed by the OP, where a villain can indeed force a merge, as described.

Quote:
Where are you getting the "No Unkillable 1 -33%" limitation from? As far as I know, there is no such official limitation. While Unkillable 1 costs one third of unkillable 3, a -33% limitation does not seem appropriate. The protection against death from Unkillable 1 is significantly less valuable if you have the resurrection abilities of Unkillable 2 or 3.
I disagree, I think it really ought to be worth a higher limitation, but Unkillable 1 is 50 points and so there we are. Coming back after you die is far less valuable if you could die at all the HT multiples, including -1xHP. Being able to keep swinging or running or bandaging all the way down to -10xHP has enormous utility. After all, if you die at -1xHP with Unkillable 2 or 3, you are out of the action for 2xHP days sans other expensive advantages... Even if you pass out at -6xHP, looking like hamburger while not actually being dead has utility, especially since you'll wake up rather faster from that state than from dying at even just -1xHP, never mind at -5xHP.

Quote:
Having complete control over ally is not something you get with a minor price bump. The Minion enhancement is not as good as that and it costs +50%. While dupes can't have different abilities, unlike for Allies, their character sheets are not hiddenly designed by the GM, which is a rather large advantage.

A Summonable Minion built on 100% of your point value and who is constantly available costs 60 points.
I disagree with Summonable as appropriate, but even if it is, remember to divide by 5 for One Use. You dont get duplicates back, and so the Ally build we compare it to (ESPECIALLY one built with Minion) shouldnt come back either. Or perhaps charge full price for the Summonable bit (which you can use over and over) but not for the Minion Ally bit. Either way.

Summonable is questionable because Duplicates dont get equipment (without another expensive enhancement) while Summonable Allies do.

Edit: And to keep things focused, I argue these broad strokes to show favor towards a larger than -10% limitation to Duplication for the OPs proposed limitation. Im not really trying to reprice Duplication, Extra Life, or Unkillable (or Allies for that matter).
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Old 08-08-2016, 03:45 AM   #14
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Default Re: [Powers] Duplication Limitation (Cannot all be in the same place at the same time

Quote:
Originally Posted by chandley View Post
My apologies, Im speaking to the limitation proposed by the OP, where a villain can indeed force a merge, as described.
It is true that you would have to hide from the villain who has kidnapped your dupe if you have such a limitation and want to avoid a forced merge. However compare that to someone with Extra Life who got imprisoned by the villain. Rather than just having to avoid the villain, such a character would be unable to do anything.

Quote:
I disagree, I think it really ought to be worth a higher limitation, but Unkillable 1 is 50 points and so there we are. Coming back after you die is far less valuable if you could die at all the HT multiples, including -1xHP. Being able to keep swinging or running or bandaging all the way down to -10xHP has enormous utility. After all, if you die at -1xHP with Unkillable 2 or 3, you are out of the action for 2xHP days sans other expensive advantages... Even if you pass out at -6xHP, looking like hamburger while not actually being dead has utility, especially since you'll wake up rather faster from that state than from dying at even just -1xHP, never mind at -5xHP.
Coming back from death takes even longer if you die at -10xHP. Yes, you might die more often without Unkillable 1, but a higher risk of death obviously makes a resurrection ability more valuable. Such an ability does after all provide little value if you never die.


Quote:
I disagree with Summonable as appropriate, but even if it is, remember to divide by 5 for One Use. You dont get duplicates back, and so the Ally build we compare it to (ESPECIALLY one built with Minion) shouldnt come back either. Or perhaps charge full price for the Summonable bit (which you can use over and over) but not for the Minion Ally bit. Either way.

Summonable is questionable because Duplicates dont get equipment (without another expensive enhancement) while Summonable Allies do.

Edit: And to keep things focused, I argue these broad strokes to show favor towards a larger than -10% limitation to Duplication for the OPs proposed limitation. Im not really trying to reprice Duplication, Extra Life, or Unkillable (or Allies for that matter).
You can merge and resummon dupes, so one use is probably not appropriate. Why not charge full price for Minion? Being able to directly control your ally is even better than the Minion enhancement.

It is true that duplicates don't get equipment, but that is not relevant for all characters (for example many characters with dead broke). Even if you completely remove the Summonable enhancement, such an ally would cost 30 points. Add Extra Life as an Alternative Ability to that and you end up with a final cost of 30+25/5 = 35.

The previous Alternative Ability reasoning shows some of the danger with a limitation greater than 10%. If you reduce the cost of the ally part by more than five points, the Extra Life part becomes the most expensive part of the advantage and further limitations on the ally does not affect the cost much.
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