Can You Cheat an Item During Combat?

Griffen25 · 07-17-2010, 03:09 AM

Q: Whilst in combat with a monster, can you play a cheat card from your hand with another item from your hand and gain the bonuses during that combat?

I ask this question, because it arose last night whilst playing with my friends, I believed strongly that you couldn't play items (ie a weapon) whilst in combat regardless if you have a cheat card or not. However I was over-ruled by the owner of the game.

I had a quick squizz over the FAQ regarding playing cards in combat and asside from the obvious rule of not being able to play items or swap items in combat; I could not find this example mentioned specifically or remotely.

Thanks!.

MunchkinMan · 07-17-2010, 07:17 AM

Because you can't play a new Item during combat, it doesn't matter if it's with Cheat! or not, so the very specific case you ask about isn't changed by the general rule. The only Items you can play during combat are one-shot Items that you are going to use right then.

You also can't play Cheat! on an Item you weren't using but had in play to start using it during combat.

MIB2826 · 07-20-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Because you can't play a new Item during combat, it doesn't matter if it's with Cheat! or not, so the very specific case you ask about isn't changed by the general rule. The only Items you can play during combat are one-shot Items that you are going to use right then.

You also can't play Cheat! on an Item you weren't using but had in play to start using it during combat.

Advocate for the Devil here:

Imagine that you started combat as an Elf with an Elf-Only Item.
During that combat you get cursed to lose your race, which means you can no longer use you Item.
Can you, in this case, play Cheat on the Item?
You didn't play it during combat and you did use it at the start of it.

Genpin · 07-20-2010, 06:08 PM

Nope, if you lose your race, you MUST rearrange your items in a legal layout (if you lost a dwarf, you have to discard extra big items) This is not M:the Marketing :)

Andrew Hackard · 07-20-2010, 06:08 PM

The item was already legally in play, so I would say that yes, you could Cheat! the item.

Genpin · 07-20-2010, 06:14 PM

but resolving the curse does not involve making legal all your items in play? if you lose your elf race, you MUST "tap" the illegal items... this seems like a counter in reaction of a curse :S

MunchkinMan · 07-20-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genpin

but resolving the curse does not involve making legal all your items in play? if you lose your elf race, you MUST "tap" the illegal items... this seems like a counter in reaction of a curse :S

Firstly: You don't "tap" anything in Munchkin. That is not a term we use. Secondly: Show where it's stated, in the FAQ or the rules, that you're allowed to change what equipment you are using. You may not be able to get a bonus from it, but just because you were an Elf and now you're not, it doesn't mean you get to set aside all your Elf-only Items.

Genpin · 07-20-2010, 06:35 PM

nice catch, this is what happens when you assume too much. Thanks for the clarification, Andrew and MunchkinMan

Thomas · 07-24-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Firstly: You don't "tap" anything in Munchkin. That is not a term we use. Secondly: Show where it's stated, in the FAQ or the rules, that you're allowed to change what equipment you are using. You may not be able to get a bonus from it, but just because you were an Elf and now you're not, it doesn't mean you get to set aside all your Elf-only Items.

Although it wasn't Munchkin wording, allowing for translation of "tap", my guess is that Genpin (from Buenos Aires, Argentina) might have been referring to this idea:

Quote:

"You should indicate items that can't help you, or extras not being worn, by turning the cards sideways." (p. 5)

So, if you change race (for example), although you are still holding or wearing something for your former race, it can't help you any longer. That would normally be indicated by turning it sideways.

But then, I'm not clear about one thing, i.e. whether you take a different view from what Andrew said here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

The item was already legally in play, so I would say that yes, you could Cheat! the item.

So, if I understand this correctly, if an item in play and in hand or worn becomes unusable, Andrew's position is that one could Cheat! the item back into a state of being usable again.

This seems to make sense. The rules exclude playing an item from your hand, but the Cheat! card is not an item. The rules exclude equipping items, but that wouldn't limit the situation that is caused by a race (or class or gender) change where you already had the item in hand or worn (and only just became ineligible to use it effectively).

[As you observed, these rules would exclude the other scenario of playing both the item and the Cheat! card from the hand during combat.]

The rules also explicitly allow...

Quote:

Some Door cards may also be played into combat, ... (p. 2)

and the Cheat! card is a door card. So would you concur that one could cheat an item back into usefulness by playing Cheat! from your hand, provided you already were holding or wearing the item?

Kirt · 07-25-2010, 03:16 AM

"You should indicate items that can't help you, or extras not being worn, by turning the cards sideways."

Rather than tapped, the term for this is "unwielded" - that is, carried, but not being used.

If you get hit with a lose race curse outside of combat, it makes sense to turn your race-specific items sideways because now that you are not getting any bonuses from them, you should unwield them so that you can take something else up.

But in this case it is important to realize that having the card turned sidewise does not mean you aren't getting bonuses, it means that you aren't wielding the item.

If you get hit with a lose race card during combat, you cannot turn your card sideways, because you cannot unwield it. You can't change gear during combat. So you are stuck using those items even though you are not getting a bonus from them. And they must remain vertical, because you are still wielding them. This is the "legal layout" - you are stuck wielding the items you started the combat with.

If you can play another race card, you can now re-apply the bonuses from the items that you are still wielding.

And as Andrew ruled above, if you have lost your race in combat and now have items you are not receiving bonuses from, you can Cheat! one of those items to restore the bonus, because you are still wielding it and it fits Cheat!'s description of an item that you otherwise could not have or use.

If you really had unwielded the item (turned it sidewise), Cheating would not help in the current combat because Cheat! does not let you apply the bonus from an item you are not actually wielding (As MM says above).

07-17-2010, 03:09 AM	#1
Griffen25 Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Western Australia	Can You Cheat an Item During Combat? Q: Whilst in combat with a monster, can you play a cheat card from your hand with another item from your hand and gain the bonuses during that combat? I ask this question, because it arose last night whilst playing with my friends, I believed strongly that you couldn't play items (ie a weapon) whilst in combat regardless if you have a cheat card or not. However I was over-ruled by the owner of the game. I had a quick squizz over the FAQ regarding playing cards in combat and asside from the obvious rule of not being able to play items or swap items in combat; I could not find this example mentioned specifically or remotely. Thanks!. __________________ Munchkins 1,3,4,5,6..

07-17-2010, 07:17 AM	#2
MunchkinMan Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Macungie, PA	Re: Can You Cheat an Item During Combat? Because you can't play a new Item during combat, it doesn't matter if it's with Cheat! or not, so the very specific case you ask about isn't changed by the general rule. The only Items you can play during combat are one-shot Items that you are going to use right then. You also can't play Cheat! on an Item you weren't using but had in play to start using it during combat. __________________ Erik D. Zane *Munchkin* NetRep -- munchkin@sjgames.com MiB #1029 Last edited by MunchkinMan; 07-17-2010 at 07:33 AM.

07-20-2010, 06:08 PM	#4
Genpin MIB Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina	Re: Can You Cheat an Item During Combat? Nope, if you lose your race, you MUST rearrange your items in a legal layout (if you lost a dwarf, you have to discard extra big items) This is not M:the Marketing :)

07-20-2010, 06:08 PM	#5
Andrew Hackard *Munchkin* Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Austin, TX	Re: Can You Cheat an Item During Combat? The item was already legally in play, so I would say that yes, you could Cheat! the item. __________________ Andrew Hackard, *Munchkin* Line Editor If you have a question that isn't getting answered, we have a thread for that. Let people like what they like. Don't be a gamer hater. #PlayMunchkin on social media: Twitter \|\| Facebook \|\| Instagram \|\| YouTube Follow us on Kickstarter: Steve Jackson Games and Warehouse 23

07-20-2010, 06:14 PM	#6
Genpin MIB Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina	Re: Can You Cheat an Item During Combat? but resolving the curse does not involve making legal all your items in play? if you lose your elf race, you MUST "tap" the illegal items... this seems like a counter in reaction of a curse :S

07-20-2010, 06:35 PM	#8
Genpin MIB Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina	Re: Can You Cheat an Item During Combat? nice catch, this is what happens when you assume too much. Thanks for the clarification, Andrew and MunchkinMan

07-25-2010, 03:16 AM	#10
Kirt Join Date: Aug 2009	Re: Can You Cheat an Item During Combat? "You should indicate items that can't help you, or extras not being worn, by turning the cards sideways." Rather than tapped, the term for this is "unwielded" - that is, carried, but not being used. If you get hit with a lose race curse outside of combat, it makes sense to turn your race-specific items sideways because now that you are not getting any bonuses from them, you should unwield them so that you can take something else up. But in this case it is important to realize that having the card turned sidewise does not mean you aren't getting bonuses, it means that you aren't wielding the item. If you get hit with a lose race card during combat, you cannot turn your card sideways, because you cannot unwield it. You can't change gear during combat. So you are stuck using those items even though you are not getting a bonus from them. And they must remain vertical, because you are still wielding them. This is the "legal layout" - you are stuck wielding the items you started the combat with. If you can play another race card, you can now re-apply the bonuses from the items that you are still wielding. And as Andrew ruled above, if you have lost your race in combat and now have items you are not receiving bonuses from, you can Cheat! one of those items to restore the bonus, because you are still wielding it and it fits Cheat!'s description of an item that you otherwise could not have or use. If you really had unwielded the item (turned it sidewise), Cheating would not help in the current combat because Cheat! does not let you apply the bonus from an item you are not actually wielding (As MM says above). Last edited by Kirt; 07-25-2010 at 03:22 AM.