Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-20-2008, 02:23 PM   #21
Sam Baughn
 
Sam Baughn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: United Kingdom of Great Britain and some other bits.
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
In order to have the Strongbow Perk as well as two Special Exercises, that means a minimum of 30 CPs spent on an archery style and 10 points spent on Arm ST. That's... quite an investment for a bowman.

I'll buy it from a professional, life-long archer, sure. But I think that the majority of bow users do not have Special Exercises.
As I understand it, the kind of bowmen likely to be firing 150 lbs. medieval warbows (a distinct minority of all people who fought or hunted with bows throughout history) trained hard from an early age in order to achieve the required arm strength. Skeletons of English longbowmen show quite scary 'deformities' caused by their unusually large arm and chest muscles.
Sam Baughn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 02:34 PM   #22
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect Organism
As I understand it, the kind of bowmen likely to be firing 150 lbs. medieval warbows (a distinct minority of all people who fought or hunted with bows throughout history) trained hard from an early age in order to achieve the required arm strength. Skeletons of English longbowmen show quite scary 'deformities' caused by their unusually large arm and chest muscles.
Absolutely.

But he was talking about the kind of people who fire #125 bows. And those aren't as scary.

An English longbowman, at least as I imagine him in my campaigns, has an effective ST of 15+ (any combination of ST, Strongbow and Arm ST).

But I note that using 3 x Basic Lift means that that remains true. Using 2.25xBL, however, means that anyone using a #150 warbow has to be ST 18!

I think that firing a bow of that draw should be difficult, but not impossible. ST 18, at least in my vision of the world, is rarer than hen's teeth (Lifting ST 18 is somewhat more common).
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 02:35 PM   #23
jacobmuller
 
jacobmuller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Not in your time zone:D
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
GURPS bows can punch through plate at over 200 yards and are no harder to use than muskets. Crossbows are actually easier to shoot accurately than 18th century muskets.

A soldier using a Brown Bess musket with 2 points in Guns (Musket) has skill 11 and fires at effective skill 13 after aiming. A soldier using a Composite Bow with 2 points in Bow has skill 10 and fires at skill 13 after aiming. The crossbow-using soldier with 2 points in Crossbow has skill 11 and fires at effective skill 15 after aiming.
Training, assuming you start with Joe Average, to be able to use a Longbow at a skill of 10 will take 5,200 hours. I believe Sundays were the traditional day for such training, in Wales of course. That's 6-12 years of training to get ST+1 and DX/A [2] 10. And then he'll do 1d+1 with Acc3 out to 165yds.

Muskets and Crossbows are DX/E. Grab your conscript and give him 4 weeks training and he'll have DX/E [1] 10. Assuming you give him a goats foot with his outsize crossbow, he'll manage 1d+4 with Acc4 out to 280 yds. With a musket it's 4d with Acc 2 out to 100 yds but he gets almost double the 1/2D range and that's twice the damage at treble the effective Longbow range. At TL4, you'll be using flintlocks; quicker reload and 2.5x1/2D range.

Versus armour? GURPS TL3 plate is DR7; with a Longbow, you'll need extra muscles and real good luck on your die rolls to do anything or am I reading the stats wrong? Crossbows penetrate plate with comparative ease, and muskets can ignore it. The only place where Longbows win is reload rate:(

So, Longbow man, 6-12 years training, for a weapon of no use against heavy armour v's crossbow/musket, 4 weeks training, for battlefield clearance...
__________________
"Sanity is a bourgeois meme." Exegeek
PS sorry I'm a Parthian shootist: shiftwork + out of = not here when you are:/
jacobmuller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 02:36 PM   #24
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannes665
Yes I do realize that shooting at another living man was not something that one would like to do and many soldiers closed their eyes before taking the shot.

BUT even if today reeanactors can with their "modern" versions of the rifles hit a human target at 100 yards that does not change the fact that many of the late 18th century and early 19th century riflemen had not as good powder as we do today nor that the musket balls were not a perfect fit so the musket balls would wobble and their trajectory beyond 30-50 yards was unreliable at best.

Later bullets like the minié ball would drastically change accuracy of the basic infantry rifle.
Reenactors with a Brown Bess, not a rifle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannes665
My problem with Gurps Acc is the same as Icelander. I would think that a rather modern Rifle would have a better Acc than a basic Crossbow. On the other hand I would think that a standard pre 1840ish musket would have lower Acc than most basic Crossbows.

But a nice TL 7 or TL 8 hunting rifle would have better acc than a basic Crossbow.
I'm thinking that a gameable Crossbow would be Acc 2. Maybe Acc 3.

That's if we don't change anything else.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 02:39 PM   #25
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller
Training, assuming you start with Joe Average, to be able to use a Longbow at a skill of 10 will take 5,200 hours. I believe Sundays were the traditional day for such training, in Wales of course. That's 6-12 years of training to get ST+1 and DX/A [2] 10. And then he'll do 1d+1 with Acc3 out to 165yds.

Muskets and Crossbows are DX/E. Grab your conscript and give him 4 weeks training and he'll have DX/E [1] 10. Assuming you give him a goats foot with his outsize crossbow, he'll manage 1d+4 with Acc4 out to 280 yds. With a musket it's 4d with Acc 2 out to 100 yds but he gets almost double the 1/2D range and that's twice the damage at treble the effective Longbow range. At TL4, you'll be using flintlocks; quicker reload and 2.5x1/2D range.

Versus armour? GURPS TL3 plate is DR7; with a Longbow, you'll need extra muscles and real good luck on your die rolls to do anything or am I reading the stats wrong? Crossbows penetrate plate with comparative ease, and muskets can ignore it. The only place where Longbows win is reload rate:(

So, Longbow man, 6-12 years training, for a weapon of no use against heavy armour v's crossbow/musket, 4 weeks training, for battlefield clearance...
Ability increases don't use the 1 CP = 200 hours mechanism.

Rasing ST doesn't take anywhere near 6-12 years. Just look at a lot of athletes throughout history who've gone up weight classes or improved their performance.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 03:56 PM   #26
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
Absolutely.

But he was talking about the kind of people who fire #125 bows. And those aren't as scary.
I'd probably define anything over 75# as scary, but my knowledge of what power bows people usually hunt with (as opposed to go to war with) isn't that good.

Quote:
An English longbowman, at least as I imagine him in my campaigns, has an effective ST of 15+ (any combination of ST, Strongbow and Arm ST).
Concur.

Quote:
But I note that using 3 x Basic Lift means that that remains true. Using 2.25xBL, however, means that anyone using a #150 warbow has to be ST 18!

I think that firing a bow of that draw should be difficult, but not impossible. ST 18, at least in my vision of the world, is rarer than hen's teeth (Lifting ST 18 is somewhat more common).
Here's a table, with draw weight as the quantity being calculated.
Code:
	Multiplier			
Bow ST	2	2.25	2.5	3
10	40	45	50	60
12	58	65	72	86
14	78	88	98	118
16	102	115	128	154
18	130	146	162	194
20	160	180	200	240
a 2.0 multiplier is clearly bogus; the median warbow in medieval times would thus be a ST20 bow, which doesn't work for me at all.

2.25 does indeed put it at a ST18 bow, but with up to +4 available with Arm ST (special exercises) and up to +2 more ST with strongbow bonus based on skill, ST14 for a professional archer trained from birth isn't all bad. Still, that's 40pts on ST and even more on exercises and a few more on skill.

2.5 puts a ST20 bow, at 200lbs (beyond the upper end of bow draw I've seen quoted of 180lbs). Seems OK, and having a typical person of ST10 be capable of drawing a 50lb bow (and a 70lbs bow being ST12) without training or special exercises works for me. Hunters with lots of practice can draw a hunting bow with DX+2 and ST10 of 70lbs. And ST10 with a bow ST of 14 with special exercises and DX-based skill with Strongbow is a legit archer build.

3.0 multiplier puts the upper end of the typical medieval bow at ST17. A 150lb bow would be ST16...which would only deliver 1d imp of damage based on the kinetic energy alone. If we think that a typical bow can punch through more than 1mm of armor, we need an armor divisor to compensate.

So maybe the 2.5 to 3.0 multipliers are six of one, half-dozen of the other, but the higher multiplier gives (on the one hand) VERY powerful bows more upper end in penetration (since the 150lb "reference bow" at 1d worth of KE for a target-style point would happen at a lower bow ST).
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC: Home of Dragon Heresy, Hall of Judgment, and hand-made viking shields.
Now Funding on Kickstarter: Nordlond Sagas: Three New books for the DFRPG
Pre-Order on Backerkit: Four Perilous Journeys: New Adventures plus physical accessories for The Fantasy Trip. FIVE adventures for TFT, written by David Pulver and the team of Christopher R. Rice and J. Edward Tremlett.
DouglasCole is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 03:58 PM   #27
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
 
DouglasCole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller
Versus armour? GURPS TL3 plate is DR7; with a Longbow, you'll need extra muscles and real good luck on your die rolls to do anything or am I reading the stats wrong? Crossbows penetrate plate with comparative ease, and muskets can ignore it. The only place where Longbows win is reload rate:(

The stats I saw today for medieval crossbows suggested that crossbow damage and longbow damage should be much closer to equivalent than not.

The velocity of a 100-150lb longbow projectile at 60g and a 780lb crossbow also with a 60g projectile were nearly identical in the comparison I saw. The longbow being much, much more efficient than the crossbow.

Something to think about.
__________________
Gaming Ballistic, LLC: Home of Dragon Heresy, Hall of Judgment, and hand-made viking shields.
Now Funding on Kickstarter: Nordlond Sagas: Three New books for the DFRPG
Pre-Order on Backerkit: Four Perilous Journeys: New Adventures plus physical accessories for The Fantasy Trip. FIVE adventures for TFT, written by David Pulver and the team of Christopher R. Rice and J. Edward Tremlett.
DouglasCole is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 04:28 PM   #28
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
Here's a table, with draw weight as the quantity being calculated.
Code:
	Multiplier			
Bow ST	2	2.25	2.5	3
10	40	45	50	60
12	58	65	72	86
14	78	88	98	118
16	102	115	128	154
18	130	146	162	194
20	160	180	200	240
a 2.0 multiplier is clearly bogus; the median warbow in medieval times would thus be a ST20 bow, which doesn't work for me at all.

2.25 does indeed put it at a ST18 bow, but with up to +4 available with Arm ST (special exercises) and up to +2 more ST with strongbow bonus based on skill, ST14 for a professional archer trained from birth isn't all bad. Still, that's 40pts on ST and even more on exercises and a few more on skill.

2.5 puts a ST20 bow, at 200lbs (beyond the upper end of bow draw I've seen quoted of 180lbs). Seems OK, and having a typical person of ST10 be capable of drawing a 50lb bow (and a 70lbs bow being ST12) without training or special exercises works for me. Hunters with lots of practice can draw a hunting bow with DX+2 and ST10 of 70lbs. And ST10 with a bow ST of 14 with special exercises and DX-based skill with Strongbow is a legit archer build.
Since this is for personal use only, I don't mind complicating things a bit. In my view 2xBL is reasonable for someone unskilled, 2.25xBL for anyone with any training at all, 2.5xBL at DX-level, 2.75xBL at DX+1 and finally reaching 3xBL at DX+2.

Strongbow Perk is only for those who have 10 points or more in an archery style, which I'd say is rare for a modern man, but reasonable for a historical archer. It works normally in this scheme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
3.0 multiplier puts the upper end of the typical medieval bow at ST17. A 150lb bow would be ST16...which would only deliver 1d imp of damage based on the kinetic energy alone.
Do you have data about the experiment?

How good was the reproduction bow? How skilled and strong was the archer?

In other words, is this an absolute upper limit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
If we think that a typical bow can punch through more than 1mm of armor, we need an armor divisor to compensate.
Do we think that longbows can punch through armour?

I think that the occasional high damage roll representing a lucky angle or hitting a weak point is fun and gamable, but I don't think that arrows historically penetrated armour at all.

I'd like to strike some sort of balance between 'impossible' and 'rare', though. Since ST damage is too high anyway, it's okay if we come out a little high too, as long as the relative effectiveness of weapons is plausible.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 04:32 PM   #29
Icelander
 
Icelander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
The stats I saw today for medieval crossbows suggested that crossbow damage and longbow damage should be much closer to equivalent than not.

The velocity of a 100-150lb longbow projectile at 60g and a 780lb crossbow also with a 60g projectile were nearly identical in the comparison I saw. The longbow being much, much more efficient than the crossbow.

Something to think about.
I agree with that assessment.

But crossbows do allow some extremely high draw weights, up to #1200. That would be an unwieldly and heavy crossbow, but it might hit harder than a longbow.
__________________
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Icelander is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2008, 06:20 PM   #30
Žorkell
Icelandic - Approach With Caution
 
Žorkell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Reykjavķk, Iceland
Default Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller
Are the muscle powered weapon stats wrong?
I know long-bows were better than 18th century muskets. Wasn't it Washington who would have preferred his army be armed with them?
I thought it was Wellington who asked for longbowmen for his Peninsular Army. Same era, different man.
__________________
Žorkell Sigvaldason

Viking kittens | My photos | More of my photos
Žorkell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bow, crossbow, low-tech, missile weapons

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.