Five Earths, All in a Row

[warellis]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

It'll be a while before they have that opportunity, but I can certaqinly see them trying. They're likely to find it very strange, and if they don't bother to hire very good local guides, and get some training in languages and customs, run the risk of insulting someone who'll kill them for it.

If a civilian group did want to travel/send an expedition to Fa-Earth, like the example I was asking about, what languages should they learn? Are either Greek or Latin a lingua franca of the Western/Eastern Roman Empires? Are there places where Christians are sorta concentrated that a research team, like the one I was asking about, could possibly go to learn more about early Christianity?

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

Not exactly, though they both developed from the same roots. The Ashanti Empire didn't exist, yet, but the Akan people did, and were a growing nation. The Akan Empire covers a wider area, including most of modern Ghana and Togo, and large parts of Ivory Coast, Benin, Nigeria, and Liberia, due to having very good boats, and being quite good at road-building. The tribal leaders are quick to pick up any technological innovations they can get from their European trading partners, and some are working on developing better educational standards, so that they can better develop their own innovations, instead of staying behind the crazy pink chaps.

Not clear on whether any European universities would accept African students in this time period, but if they did, they'd be getting a lot for the Akan, mostly the sons of tribal leaders.

From what I remember, in this era, there really wasn't racism as we know it today. That was actually a result of the Enlightenment era and its sciences. I think those European universities would probably be more selective based on religion. For example, Ethiopia has been Christian for over 1200 years at this point of time in Clp-Earth and I don't remember reading about any discrimination regarding skin color. Is the Akan empire a Christian power?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by warellis

If a civilian group did want to travel/send an expedition to Fa-Earth, like the example I was asking about, what languages should they learn? Are either Greek or Latin a lingua franca of the Western/Eastern Roman Empires? Are there places where Christians are sorta concentrated that a research team, like the one I was asking about, could possibly go to learn more about early Christianity?

Learning both would be good, but Latin is currently the most generally useful. Greek is kind of an upper-class thing in the Western Empire, and Latin is, ironically, an upper-class thing in the Eastern Empire.

Originally Posted by warellis

From what I remember, in this era, there really wasn't racism as we know it today. That was actually a result of the Enlightenment era and its sciences. I think those European universities would probably be more selective based on religion. For example, Ethiopia has been Christian for over 1200 years at this point of time in Clp-Earth and I don't remember reading about any discrimination regarding skin color. Is the Akan empire a Christian power?

No, but it has a small Christian community that aren't persecuted as long as they aren't being disruptive (light proselytizing is tolerated, but getting aggressive, or attacking other faiths' ceremonies, is not), and a few upper-class cynics who would be inclined to convincingly fake it, if it let them into some place like Oxford or Bologna (two of the oldest universities in Europe).

The University of Dunkwa, in the Empire's capital, is not quite fifty years old, and is mostly inferior to the universities of Europe, but is nonetheless a serious institution, rapidly catching up with the standards of their northern counterparts. They have an exceptional Astronomy/Astrology department, however, with a few scholars who are developing what we would call Kepler's laws of planetary motion, nearly twenty years before Kepler was born - partly because they have (a few, and quite expensive) reflecting telescopes, to help them study the heavens more closely. These use polished silver mirrors, rather than the glass lenses of the new telescopes becoming available in Europe, and thus can be larger.

EDIT: Crunchwise, they're advanced in Optics and Astronomy, but rather behind in other arts and sciences.

[warellis]

Regarding the US special forces sent to Dsp-Europe, did they bring modernized WW2-period weapons with them? For example if they brought any WW2 weapons with them, do they use more modern components like say polymer magazines/clips?

Or did they just bring modern weapons that can use the common calibers of the period?

[warellis]

Hey Charon, Apocal posted an interesting chart on modern MBT frontal armor protection against sabots. It might be useful for any stories involving current Inp-Earth tanks, especially in comparison with current Dsp-Earth tanks.

EDIT: I'll post the chart here as well so people can see it more specifically:

http://i.imgur.com/8IYPOP3.gif



Also Charon, assuming by act of ROB that current Inp-Earth tank development stalled in armor protection and gun penetration with the exception of adding magic to increase protection but it to stalls, as in current Inp-Earth tanks would be at their best in development, how long would it take DSP/Atp-Earth tanks to catch up in material technology and guns to be equal to current magically-enchanted Inp-Earth tanks?

[Prince Charon]

Assuming current or greater levels of communication between worlds?

Probably not less than fifteen years, and probably not more than thirty, depending on a wide range of factors, including the availability and use of natural magical materials on (by then) Atompunk Earth.

Of course, Inp-Earth's tank development won't be standing still.

[Hakazin]

This seems pretty cool!

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Hakazin

This seems pretty cool!

Thank you!

Feel free to contribute, if you have any ideas, or notice something that may have been missed.

[warellis]

You know I've been thinking something: because of the psionic abilities of the thoughtforms, Inp-Earth has access to magitech that allows it, and the other Earths, to create superscience technology. But another thing I'm wondering is will this allow proof of a soul to be demonstrated and in what ways could that affect transhumanism? One of the biggest objections I've always heard about mind backups and such is that it's not really "you", but merely a clone with a copy of your memories. But if the ability to prove that souls exist can be demonstrated, possibly in the future, will the magitech Inp-Earth is now starting to create allow for the possibility of binding both mind and soul to allow for backups when death occurs?

I got this idea from a fan creation called Eidolon where a blending of magic and technology allowed for things like this:

Technomagic is the colloquial name for the branches fusing magical theory with scientific theory. Technomagic has created "true" backups with continuity of consciousness, FTL drives, and various other forms of convenience.

Backups

Continuity of consciousness was a much-heated debate about mind backup before the Overlay, but now with the ability to manipulate the soul and bind it to a vessel, this has died out. The standardized mind backup is a "Soulcatcher", a combination of soulgem and cortical stack, which binds both mind and soul

A backup clinic can, in the event of death, undo this binding and return the soul itself to

I think such a thing would alleviate most religious concerns about mind backups and possibly other forms of transhumanism. This time it really would be "you" since you're soul and mind have been moved from one body to another.

By then I think really the only real religious concern, if you're a follower of said religion, is that you're trying to stay in the world instead of going along to whatever reward awaits in the afterlife or through enlightenment. For Buddhists and Christians, I don't really know about other religions, the mortal world is ultimately one of pain and suffering and pales in beauty and comparison to the goal of enlightenment or Heaven. Keeping yourself alive indefinitely through such backups in a sense could be keeping yourself through the cycle of reincarnation and preventing yourself from achieving enlightenment, which is a bad thing (Buddhism) or could be denying yourself the Heavenly reward that awaits (Christianity).

[Dargaron]

Originally Posted by warellis

You know I've been thinking something: because of the psionic abilities of the thoughtforms, Inp-Earth has access to magitech that allows it, and the other Earths, to create superscience technology. But another thing I'm wondering is will this allow proof of a soul to be demonstrated and in what ways could that affect transhumanism? One of the biggest objections I've always heard about mind backups and such is that it's not really "you", but merely a clone with a copy of your memories. But if the ability to prove that souls exist can be demonstrated, possibly in the future, will the magitech Inp-Earth is now starting to create allow for the possibility of binding both mind and soul to allow for backups when death occurs?

How would having such a thoughtform "confirm" a soul? Wouldn't people just invent some other "intrinsic" part of oneself that cannot be detected? I mean, we can weigh bodies before and after death: we can tell that nothing physical "leaves" the body in a way we can't detect it, but that hasn't stopped people from believing in a soul

Originally Posted by warellis

By then I think really the only real religious concern, if you're a follower of said religion, is that you're trying to stay in the world instead of going along to whatever reward awaits in the afterlife or through enlightenment. For Buddhists and Christians, I don't really know about other religions, the mortal world is ultimately one of pain and suffering and pales in beauty and comparison to the goal of enlightenment or Heaven. Keeping yourself alive indefinitely through such backups in a sense could be keeping yourself through the cycle of reincarnation and preventing yourself from achieving enlightenment, which is a bad thing (Buddhism) or could be denying yourself the Heavenly reward that awaits (Christianity).

The thing is, most lay-Buddhists (I know, this isn't the appropriate term to use) do not think that they'll attain enlightenment in this life. That's an extraordinary case. However, the "back-up program" that you mention would be very beneficial in the traditional religions of India. An anecdote (from a Hindu source, but nevertheless, in a tradition that is ancestral to both religions) says that, the odds of a soul getting reincarnated as a human, are the same as those of a blind turtle surfacing in a particular, moving spot in the ocean; that is, it's really unlikely. But if one could ensure that one reincarnated into a human (which has much greater opportunity for advancement than, say, an ant), that would be enormously beneficial.

[warellis]

Originally Posted by Dargaron

How would having such a thoughtform "confirm" a soul? Wouldn't people just invent some other "intrinsic" part of oneself that cannot be detected? I mean, we can weigh bodies before and after death: we can tell that nothing physical "leaves" the body in a way we can't detect it, but that hasn't stopped people from believing in a soul

Well I was presuming that with Fa-Earth (Fantasy Earth, the one with Arthur stuff) having all this magitech due to the thoughtforms there that Inp-Earth would be able to create more advanced versions of said magitech and it might be possible to prove souls exist through said magitech.

Originally Posted by Dargaron

The thing is, most lay-Buddhists (I know, this isn't the appropriate term to use) do not think that they'll attain enlightenment in this life. That's an extraordinary case. However, the "back-up program" that you mention would be very beneficial in the traditional religions of India. An anecdote (from a Hindu source, but nevertheless, in a tradition that is ancestral to both religions) says that, the odds of a soul getting reincarnated as a human, are the same as those of a blind turtle surfacing in a particular, moving spot in the ocean; that is, it's really unlikely. But if one could ensure that one reincarnated into a human (which has much greater opportunity for advancement than, say, an ant), that would be enormously beneficial.

You know what's creepy: when you said "reincarnated into a human" I started thinking "what if you put the backup into a baby body instead of a adult human body or whatever body your age was at when you died?" Could you imagine dying as an adult but they save your mind & soul and stick into a baby body?

Also regarding what you said about Hinduism and backing up, would that be allowed though? Religions will evolve with times to keep up, that's how religions have been successful, but considering this has the hand of man guiding the entire process would Hindus be okay with that? Would it seem sorta like cheating or something to them? I don't know much about Hinduism other than the whole "huge numbers of gods" and there's a reincarnation cycle. How is the reincarnation cycle guided in Hinduism? Other than how you lived your life, are there any other things that determine how you will reincarnate? For instance could it be argued that the problem here is that even if you lived your life poorly you can just get backed up into another human body instead of a more deserving fate, like say getting reincarnated into a dog? It's just an example since as I said I don't know much about Hinduism.

Also isn't there the whole issue about remembering everything in the "past life"? In Buddhism or Hinduism when you reincarnate do you remember your past life? Does each reincarnation allow for a clean slate/tabula rosa? Because when you think about it, isn't one issue with comparing this to reincarnation that in this case you will remember everything about your "past life" when you "reincarnate" through this method? If you're an ******* and get backed up and put in another body, you're still probably going to be an *******. Wouldn't that make it harder to achieve nirvana or enlightenment or whatever because you still have your old personality or morals or whatever? It's not like your personality and memories are wiped clean and your starting anew. To use the reincarnation analogy again, it's like if I'm a selfish man who lies and cheats when I "reincarnate" (backup and put into a new body), my old life's personality and morals will be so strong as to imprint upon the new "me", to the point it could be claimed I didn't really reincarnate, but my old self just stole a new body.

I guess it seems like Grand Theft Me in this case than really reincarnating. Albeit doing so on your newer body. I guess it strikes me as more of a continuation of your current life than really a form of reincarnation, unless they mindwipe you of your memories and personality and everything and stick into a baby body.

I say all this because I've seen it in fiction in stuff like anime where a villain who is attempting to reincarnation will often overwrite the personality of who they're reincarnating into (possessing more like) and it'll be pretty much the villain in a new body. Is that reincarnation or something else?