Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-15-2016, 10:45 PM   #1
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

I am curious about why there is a rather sustained rejection of the existence of high IQ in the GURPS forum. While I agree that an IQ above 14 would be quite uncommon, probably around 1% of the population, there are significant numbers of people that appear to have an IQ between 12 and 14, at least 5% of the population by my estimate. I just wonder why there seems to be a rejection of the suitability of such people for PCs and NPCs, especially since a number of GURPS templates have IQ levels in that range?
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2016, 11:18 PM   #2
Infornific
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
I am curious about why there is a rather sustained rejection of the existence of high IQ in the GURPS forum. While I agree that an IQ above 14 would be quite uncommon, probably around 1% of the population, there are significant numbers of people that appear to have an IQ between 12 and 14, at least 5% of the population by my estimate. I just wonder why there seems to be a rejection of the suitability of such people for PCs and NPCs, especially since a number of GURPS templates have IQ levels in that range?
Mostly because of the implications. With an IQ of say, 16, for one point in a Hard skill you've got an effective skill of 14 which is a high quality professional. Even with IQ 14 you can quickly become a competent professional at a wide range of fields. At most GURPS skill ranges, each +1 IQ halves the points required for a given level of skill and implicitly halves the time to learn that skill. I put together a GURPS version of Lisbeth Salander and with an IQ of 16 or so I was able to cover her borderline comic bookish brainpower. Note also a lot of real world smart people probably have Talents in GURPS terms and you're judging their brainpower from what they're best at. Remember, GURPS IQ is very broad in terms of ability. Harshly realistic, I'd probably assume at most a few percent of people would get a GURPS IQ of 12, with higher scores rarer.

As for templates - part of it is that adventurers by definition are exceptional. Part of it is that many of the fictional characters the templates are trying to emulate show exceptionally broad and deep mental abilities. A fairly realistic real world hacker might have an IQ 11 and a couple levels of Talent with high skill just in the area of computers. An adventurer will typically have a high IQ overall and be exceptional at a wide range of mental abilities. GURPS Action has a good section on exactly what a high IQ means. John McClain from Die Hard may not seem like a brainiac but he is able to unravel elaborate conspiracies all on his lonesome while entire corporations and agencies fail. Remember, most templates run 250 points and up - that's basically starting at a fairly cinematic level.
Infornific is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 12:19 AM   #3
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

How are you estimating the numbers? Yes, we know the statistical distribution of IQ scores in the real world—a normal curve with mean 100 and standard deviation (usually) 15. But there's no reason to suppose that the GURPS stat called IQ is normally distributed, or indeed to assume anything about its distribution.
__________________
Bill Stoddard

I don't think we're in Oz any more.
whswhs is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 12:26 AM   #4
Flyndaran
Untagged
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

Gurps IQ is NOT the real world vaguely defined IQ from IQ tests.
It is everything mental not relating to body coordination.
__________________
Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.
Flyndaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 01:56 AM   #5
Ashtagon
 
Ashtagon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

GURPS IQ is ridiculously broad. It's as if a game had stats for Reasoning, Empathy, Creativity, Perception, Willpower, and maybe others, and then all physical stats (GURPS-style ST, HT, and DX) were rolled into a single "Physique" stat.
Ashtagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 02:08 AM   #6
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

This is not really a rejection of very high IQ characters. High IQ characters are fun ... in cinematic or nearly cinematic adventure.

But as it has been said above, the problem comes from the broadness of IQ when you want realistic characters.

An IQ 18 character, for instance, could be considered as the brightest people on the Earth and, then, some players could say that he is realistic – as soon as there are not dozens of characters like him in the game world; it would just be the unique brightest ever in the world, and he should exist somewhere.

But, in GURPS, an IQ 18 character has got almost all mental skills at level 12 to 14 just by default! The guy contents himself with watching some TV series, documentaries, a couple of guys working here or there and shazam! He can compete with professionals or even experts in Accounting, Acting, Administration, Animal Handling, Anthropology, Archeology, Architecture, every Area Knowledge around the world, all Armoury specialties, all Artillery specialties, all Artist specialties, Astronomy, and so on (note that I just copied skills with the letter A from the Basic Set. Dozens more skills are following) ...

He is not just the guy with the highest IQ test results in the world, he is Jarod in The Pretender TV series, Walter O’Brien in the Scorpion TV series, or Walter Bishop in the Fringe TV series. These characters know almost everything about everything and constantly tell to experts how wrong they are, no matter the subject.

Are these guys realistic? No. Are they fun to play? Yes. As soon as the game world is not supposed to be more realistic than these TV series.

GURPS may be one of the most realistic role playing system, it is not only designed to play realistic adventures. It is also designed to play fictional and cinematic heroes, with the same rules. To design one of the three previous character, or Sherlock Holmes, or any other universal genius like that, just take a very high IQ level. You will save a lot of character points because you won’t have to take a lot of skills: you already know most of them at level 12 to 14.

But if you want a realistic character, that is another problem. Such guys just don’t exist. Geniuses do exist. Amazing ones even do exist: Einstein, Tesla, Da Vinci ... But they were not geniuses in a so broad range of skills. Realistic geniuses are geniuses in one field, maybe two or even three. But not in all. And, in GURPS terms, it is best simulated with Talents. IQ 14 and Mathematical Ability +4 best suit for a realistic version of Einstein than IQ 18 for instance.

Note that it is not really cost effective. Realistic geniuses usually cost more character points than unrealistic ones (especially when their field of knowledge quite very wide).

Also note that it is not only a problem with IQ. The same problem arises with DX. DX 18 is good for Lara Croft, who can take any weapon, vehicle, mount, do any kind of acrobatics, climbing, swimming, and so on ... She is fun to play too and can easily be created in GURPS with a very high DX. All physical skills at level 12 or better. But if you want a more realistic character, you won't do that or it will inevitably break your suspension of disbelief.
Edit
Note that I am speaking about IQ 18 or DX 18 characters here. Scores between 12 and 14 are, in my humble opinions, quite realistic. 14 gives them default skills between 8 and 10 (25% to 50% chance of succeeding an average task), that is, just an amateur level. That doesn't break my suspension of disbelief for rare and amazing people.

Last edited by Gollum; 03-16-2016 at 07:17 AM.
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 07:25 AM   #7
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

I think Gollum perfectly resumed everything.
None of the High IQ Gurps template published (for 4e) represent mundane, non-heroic, real earth, realistic, non-point-optimized character build.
If you want such a character, cap IQ somewhere between 13 to 15 and build genius with talents and hyper-spec perks.
And even then, some historical characters like Leibnitz, da Vinci, ... may legitimately deserve to go a few IQ point above a 'realistic' cap...
In the right games ( admittedly, most of those I GM), I have no problem with high IQ characters, although I do raise IQ price (IQ! Cost 20, IQ including per and will 30).

Celjabba
Celjabba is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 07:40 AM   #8
Kalzazz
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

I have no issues with high IQ, I want to see 18+ IQ wizards and Gadgeteers alongside high DX ninja and high ST fighters etc
Kalzazz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 07:57 AM   #9
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

I think that Einstein would be best represented by IQ 16 and Mathematical Ability 4, but he represents an outlier. In general, I have found that PCs tend to balance high IQ characters with large numbers of mental disadvantages, an average on -10 points per level of IQ, which seems to represent the psychological fragility of most high IQ people in real life. I think that an IQ 16 PC could be quite realistic as long as they had -60 points of mental disadvantages to give them a reason not to be to successful to be an adventurer. For example, a traditional academic might have Absent-Minded, Clueless, Compulsive Behavior (Lecturing), Curious, Overconfidence, Pacifism, and Xenophilia.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2016, 09:22 AM   #10
Kraydak
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: An honest discussion about IQ in GURPS

If you run with Professional=12, then high IQ causes problems by allowing for amazing defaults. But Professional=12 doesn't actually make any sense when one tries to map it to real world situations, so yeah, I think allowing higher IQs is perfectly realistic. And it is worth noting that there very much are people who can get slotted into pretty much any not-highly-technical job (where one would expect the standard skill level to be well above 12) and do very well from the get-go.
Kraydak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.