The Illyrian Sport

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

How do roman naming schemes work? Like Decius Curtius <insert> Illyricus? Apparently his gens is Curtius( i don't know what this means, actually), and Illyricus is a nickname, not official, and seen as an insult, which is how I envisoned this character: he get's angry when his Roman heritage is disparaged(i.e. being called the Illyrian).

One thing I want to emphasis in this campaign is the personal swordmanship of the roman soldier, which created a standard for wester nexcellence that has always been sought after. There's a couple of mythological stories of roman single combat, and the various laws and regulations regarding the legions lead me to think that the Romans really relied on individual swordsmen. Additional support is provided by the tradition of wearing only a left greave, and a left foot leading posture, as evidenced by trajans column, and the passing nature of medieval combat, which could be described as "derivitive" from the legion's training.

This all makes sense though, which is what I'm begining to appreciate about the romans.

The Velites are the sons of farmers: they're headstrong, but not very reliable, and their fathers can't afford to equip them with anything more than some light javelins and a shield. They learn how to hurl spears at a good distance and marching, as well as scouting and the like. I imagine that a Velite who proved himself in battle would likely be sponsered by older men and gifted with the equipment of a Hastati. But for a few years they get valuable training.

This leads me to something important: ancient sources describe light troops using running throws and various throwing aids with their javiians. How do we model these?

I'm thinking about a technique for Thrown Spear, giving a +1 damage bonus. What are reasonable drawbacks for this?

Although he's 300 years later than your campaign, Josephus has an interesting comment that Romans' skill as fighters is just as important as their drill and discipline.

I'd be careful assuming that the Romans took a pace with every blow like a longsword fencer. Our Renaissance sources don't describe the fighting techniques used in battle, probably because everyone learned the basics and there wasn't space to do anything fancy. And there are some systems of medieval fighting where you normally keep the same foot forward. The writeup of Armatura in Martial Arts looked pretty reasonable to me.

For running javelin throws, you might waive or reduce the Move and Attack penalty and use TBone's rules for projectile speed and damage. Speeding up a javelin from (wildly guessing) 20 to 25 m/s would be worth about 25% greater damage. Mind you, I've never learned to throw a javelin.

The old Low Tech had a Thong Throwing technique for throwing javelins with a cord spiraled around them to make the javelin spin in flight for extra range and accuracy. For throwing javelins with a sling, you might adapt the Spear Thrower rules. A simple loop on the javelin would just be a basic part of the weapon.

[Verjigorm]

Bouncing back from prep work, I'm wondering an important question: How many points are roman soldiers at this point? In 220, it''s the Polybian legion, which is a citizen levy, right? So, how much time do these guys get as training?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Bouncing back from prep work, I'm wondering an important question: How many points are roman soldiers at this point? In 220, it''s the Polybian legion, which is a citizen levy, right? So, how much time do these guys get as training?

It would vary enormously, I'd think.

Historians are divided on how many of those enlisting would be veterans, but in any period where there were many wars, it would be at least a significant fraction.

Youngsters from the better families would also view it as their duty to learn military skills in their free time, but that might be haphazard (or not, depending on their temperament, as some Romans were certainly very capable at an early age).

In the period you're covering, it is likely that manpower shortages were helping erode the class- and property-based requirement for serving in the legions. It is unlikely that any truly property-less people served as heavy infantry, but velites and accensi/adscripti is very likely (the accensi as a class of soldiers were being phased out by velites, but some form of noncombatant servants and orderlies are nearly certain to have followed the legions).

This means that a larger proportion of those sections would come from people with no military experience and no tradition of military experience. Given that your era sees just the first baby steps in a progression that ends in 107 BC, I would not expect this to be pronounced, though. Most velites would still be rural people living close to Rome and have a tradition of service to match the adsidui, if not the property to buy the required gear.

I'd say that a legion recruited by a sensible general with clients among the people he is enlisting would consist mostly of people who have served in the ranks before or at the very least sons of veterans who have learned most military skills on their own before enlisting. Barring some specific disastrous events on the Italian peninsula, the legions were seldom reduced to enlisting unsuitable men.

The capite censi armies of Marius differed mainly by being forced to teach basic soldiering skills from the ground up, instead of accepting soldiers already trained in individual skills and being able to focus on drills and manuouevers exclusively. There is no reason to suppose that their standards of professionalism were any higher (or lower) than that of previous legionaries under good generals (who'd know enough to pick good centurions and tribunes). Poor generals, of course, might not be so lucky.

[Verjigorm]

The way I'm looking at it, more and more: 16 is probably the age of enrollment. At this age, you're probably very gung-ho about being in the Legion, but you're also a 16 year old, so you're flighty. It makes sense to me that a Velite is the first rank, because if nothing else it gives our prospective soldier a taste of what to expect. Also, if your job mainly consists of throwing a handful of spears to cover the advance of the Hastasti, and then withdrawing, you don't need alot of bravery or skill. You also won't be in the most dangerous part of the battlefield for long, and you're suppoused to clear out, rather than hang around and die. After a year or two, I can't help but think that the Velite has grown into a hardy young man, capable of sprinting around the battlefield, and keeping pace with his elders. Now, perhaps his father, uncle or older brother begins to procure gear for him, or he's gathered it from the battlefield.

So to me, the Velite seems to be a less than 50pt template, because it's principle aims seem to be throwing javilins, using his shield to deflect missiles, and running. Survival, Navigation and Stealth are definitely in order: light infantry have typically served as foragers and scouts for armies. Again, it's an ample time for him to learn soldiering, without getting killed in the press.

A Hastasti, imho, is around the same points total, but he's older and more dependable. He's still going to be poorly equipped(Helmet, Shield, Sword, two pila and maybe a breastplate), but he's now going to start standing in the main line of battle.

Trairii and Princepes strike me as the 75pters, verging on 100. But a lot of their points are taken up in their wealth: these are the men in the prime of their lives(Princepes!), by now they've inherited or gained enough property to be able to afford the expensive mail armor they're expected to wear.

Also, how is the Legion selected? It's some form of conscription, right? But is it selective conscription, or by lot, or merit, or what?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

The way I'm looking at it, more and more: 16 is probably the age of enrollment. At this age, you're probably very gung-ho about being in the Legion, but you're also a 16 year old, so you're flighty.

Do you have specific data on that? I thought that 17 was pretty universal. Could be different in earlier times, of course.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

It makes sense to me that a Velite is the first rank, because if nothing else it gives our prospective soldier a taste of what to expect.

Eh, no. I seriously doubt that.

I don't think that it makes sense to have the velites and the heavier infantry come from the same social class.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

A Hastasti, imho, is around the same points total, but he's older and more dependable. He's still going to be poorly equipped(Helmet, Shield, Sword, two pila and maybe a breastplate), but he's now going to start standing in the main line of battle.

Trairii and Princepes strike me as the 75pters, verging on 100. But a lot of their points are taken up in their wealth: these are the men in the prime of their lives(Princepes!), by now they've inherited or gained enough property to be able to afford the expensive mail armor they're expected to wear.

All of those men will be reasonably well off compared to the majority of people in Italy.

The minimum property qualification would probably equate to between Comfortable and Wealthy in GURPS terms.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Also, how is the Legion selected? It's some form of conscription, right? But is it selective conscription, or by lot, or merit, or what?

I think that it's mostly recruitment, with social pressure and laws at various times making it almost mandatory for certain people to enlist.

There will nearly certainly be families where enlisting in the legions is a Big Deal and the men are primarily soldiers and farmers only to support that aim.

[Verjigorm]

[QUOTE=Icelander;918253]Do you have specific data on that? I thought that 17 was pretty universal. Could be different in earlier times, of course.[quote]

No data, just a scientific guess: Velites are younger and less experienced, and 16 is about the point where you start becoming a man, and developing an adult body. If Polydamus was correct in suggesting that the average roman citizen spent most of his late teens and early twenties as a soldier, then I think a logical time-line is:
16/17-19/20: Velite
19/20-24/25: Hastasti and Princepe
Older: Trarii.

Eh, no. I seriously doubt that.

I don't think that it makes sense to have the velites and the heavier infantry come from the same social class.

'eh? I think it makes perfect sense: men who have almost no experience in battle have no place being on the front-line. It's a terrifying ordeal, and you don't want your main line infantry to be running away. By comparison, are going to be running, marching and performing general basic soldiering. I honestly see them almost as a form of Boy Scouts or JROTC.

All roman soldiers at this point seem to be property owners(or in the case of the Velite and Hastati, sons of property owners), and part of the middle class. And the distinction between a poor Hastus and rich velite is very vague. The skill shots arn't really that different. It also gives considerable time for improved training.

All of those men will be reasonably well off compared to the majority of people in Italy.

The minimum property qualification would probably equate to between Comfortable and Wealthy in GURPS terms.

Oh, no doubt. Even the lower-ranks of the Legion are landowners, and I agree with you here.
I think that it's mostly recruitment, with social pressure and laws at various times making it almost mandatory for certain people to enlist.

There will nearly certainly be families where enlisting in the legions is a Big Deal and the men are primarily soldiers and farmers only to support that aim.

Sure. Let's say Marcus is an old-hand at war, he's about 39, and generally settled. He serves as a Triarii, while his two younger brothers are Principes, and the youngest brother is a Hastus. His two eldest sons are serving as velites as well. His family is all about serving in the legion, and are probably well motivated and have credible training.

That's plausible right?

How big was the Roman family? In an Agarian situation, having lots of kids is a mixed blessing. On one hand, more mouths to feed. But on the other hand you've got children to look after the sheep, kids(goats :)), cattle, help farm, etc.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

No data, just a scientific guess: Velites are younger and less experienced, and 16 is about the point where you start becoming a man, and developing an adult body.

If it remained the same for most of the Republic, age seventeen would be right.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

'eh? I think it makes perfect sense: men who have almost no experience in battle have no place being on the front-line. It's a terrifying ordeal, and you don't want your main line infantry to be running away. By comparison, are going to be running, marching and performing general basic soldiering. I honestly see them almost as a form of Boy Scouts or JROTC.

I've seen nothing to support that theory. The velites seem to have been different from the hastati, not a step on the way to becoming one. For one thing, a young man enlisting in the legions would do so with his (or his father's) kit.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Sure. Let's say Marcus is an old-hand at war, he's about 39, and generally settled. He serves as a Triarii, while his two younger brothers are Principes, and the youngest brother is a Hastus. His two eldest sons are serving as velites as well. His family is all about serving in the legion, and are probably well motivated and have credible training.

That's plausible right?

Hmmm... I'd not expect Marcus to have sons that old. I think that the average age for Roman men to get married as 25-26.

And, as previously noted, I'd expect the velites to be more rural smallholders and even, unofficially, people who barely met the property-qualifications.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

How big was the Roman family? In an Agarian situation, having lots of kids is a mixed blessing. On one hand, more mouths to feed. But on the other hand you've got children to look after the sheep, kids(goats :)), cattle, help farm, etc.

It depended heavily on social status and current economic conditions. I don't think I can generalise it over several hundreds of years.

[Verjigorm]

I've seen nothing to support that theory. The velites seem to have been different from the hastati, not a step on the way to becoming one. For one thing, a young man enlisting in the legions would do so with his (or his father's) kit.

Velites replaced the Leves of the Camilian system, right? Under both systems, this position is attributed to the youngest and poorest of the classes who serve. The Hastasti are a step up in age and experience, as well as wealth. The Polybian system seems to have been more about experience and age, than wealth as determining who serves as what. If the Velites are divorced from this, then what do they become as they move up in wealth, age and experience?

And the assumption of a young man enlisting with his father's kit is dangerous in and of itself, as it assumes a 1:1 correlation between retired fathers and serving sons. If I have three sons, ages 23, 20, and 17, which one has my kit? What are they serving as?

Again, if the velites are both the youngest and poorest, then any change in their status(age and experience, or wealth) would necessary change their role. Or does he remain a Vele all his life?

In addition, this parallels most other neighboring societies, who used their younger, poorer members as skirmishers.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Velites replaced the Leves of the Camilian system, right? Under both systems, this position is attributed to the youngest and poorest of the classes who serve. The Hastasti are a step up in age and experience, as well as wealth. The Polybian system seems to have been more about experience and age, than wealth as determining who serves as what. If the Velites are divorced from this, then what do they become as they move up in wealth, age and experience?

The extent to which the Polybian system was about age and to what degree it remained about social position is unclear. Everything I've seen indicates to me that a purely age and experience based system would be unlikely. The legions remained, until Marian times, very class conscious.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

And the assumption of a young man enlisting with his father's kit is dangerous in and of itself, as it assumes a 1:1 correlation between retired fathers and serving sons. If I have three sons, ages 23, 20, and 17, which one has my kit? What are they serving as?

You either have enough wealth to buy them all new kit or only one of them can serve in the legions.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Again, if the velites are both the youngest and poorest, then any change in their status(age and experience, or wealth) would necessary change their role. Or does he remain a Vele all his life?

I should think that employee turnover, for lack of a better term, was far higher in the ranks of the velites. The less wealthy men were far more dependent on their own labour for substinence and could less afford to remain away in wars than the wealthy farmers who formed the professional heavy infantry.

Few men would remain velites forever because men of that social class (lower middle rural, I'd guess) didn't stay under the Eagles that long.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

In addition, this parallels most other neighboring societies, who used their younger, poorer members as skirmishers.

Yes, but I don't see a contradiction between saying that the young men of poorer (but still not poor) families might serve as velites and saying that the heavy infantry were men of property.

[Verjigorm]

What is the difference between a Velite with 2500 Drachmae of property and a Hastus with 2500 Drachmae?

Particularly, I can't see how it can be any sort of wise decision to throw untested youths into the role of heavy infantry and expect them to manage that job well. There's also a clear issue with training: was there a boot camp you went through, or did you pick this stuff up as you went, and from older males in your familia?

I don't see why it's extreme to extrapolate that the younger members of the family, 17-19 wouldn't be trusted by the Pater Familias with expensive wargear, and they wouldn't be trusted to hold the main line of battle. In addition, Velites themselves were not in seperate units of their own, but assigned to maniples of Hastati, Princepes and Triarii. This is a perfect time for the Velites to be trained and coached by the older men.

Rome puts roughly 18,000 men in the field every year, according to Polybius, and that's alot of mouths to feed, as well as alot of arable land not being managed. When these Romans return home, the poorer classes find their estates in disorder from their absence, while the wealthier ones benefited the most by this. But this is after the scope of my campaign. I'm not dealing with the Marian Legions at all, so there really arn't any mean under the Eaglers(well, the Eagles, Boars, Wolfs and whatnots), there are no centurions, and the legion is not a professional force.

Another important variable is the average lifespan, especially for the 5 military classes. If Roman men are citizens at 16, serve in the legions from 17-26, then married and settled down, and made babies, we run into an issue: the Pater Familias. His power doesn't expire until he's dead, right? So I imagine that when a man gets married is about when he starts to get his own house, but he's still under his father's authority.