Skills List: Cinematic vs Realistic

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

You say Esoteric Medicine, I say First Aid TL0-4, Surgery TL0-4, and Pharmacy TL0-4.

No, Esoteric Medicine has some sort of theory behind it be it 4 humors, chi flow or Ayurvedic-I-don't-really-know. It does not necessarily spring from pragmatic roots and does not normally allow a roll on the first Aid or Physician tables in Campaigns.

Esoteric Medicine is not promised to be at all effective. In our world 4 humors therapy was all a crock. Chemsitry(Phlogiston) could also be a "realistic" Skill in that it was at one time studied in the Real World and it didn't actually work either.

[Minuteman37]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

You say Esoteric Medicine, I say First Aid TL0-4, Surgery TL0-4, and Pharmacy TL0-4.

Look the book say's post TL5 medical knowledge is divided between Physician and Pharmacy (Synthetic), so are you saying pre TL5 Pharmacy (Herbal) occupies both roles as apposed to sharing the niche with Esoteric Medicine like the Physician description text says you can?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

You say Esoteric Medicine, I say First Aid TL0-4, Surgery TL0-4, and Pharmacy TL0-4.

To put it another way, Esoteric Medicine seems to be a Perception-based Expert Skill that often covers specific aspects of those skills (plus perhaps Diagnosis/TL0-4 and/or Veterinary/TL0-4, depending on the philosophy it's based on), and also aspects of Theology and/or Philosophy. It's a specific named skill because depending on the setting, different required specializations may be variably useful, all just as useful, or all really useless (or worse than useless, like sticking leeches on someone who's anemic).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, Esoteric Medicine has some sort of theory behind it be it 4 humors, chi flow or Ayurvedic-I-don't-really-know. It does not necessarily spring from pragmatic roots and does not normally allow a roll on the first Aid or Physician tables in Campaigns.

Uh, no, First Aid defaults to Esoteric Medicine at +0, so learning Esoteric Medicine definitely helps with First Aid rolls.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Esoteric Medicine is not promised to be at all effective. In our world 4 humors therapy was all a crock. Chemsitry(Phlogiston) could also be a "realistic" Skill in that it was at one time studied in the Real World and it didn't actually work either.

Low-Tech has details on what Esoteric Medicine can do in a realistic campaign. It's not as good as Physician/TL5, perhaps, but still of use. It can be used to negate the -5 to Surgery for characters who lack Physician, can be used as a (poorer) substitute for anaesthesia, and some other non-drug-related stuff from Low-Tech.

[Captain Joy]

Breath Control

Originally Posted by Kromm

A trained jock with Fit and Breath Control (which in 4e is the totally realistic skill of pacing yourself) can get back 1 FP per minute (1 per 2 minutes with Breath Control, doubled for Fit). Okay, that's more like 10 minutes than 3-6 minutes, but it's the right general order . . . if we're comparing 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour, etc., 10 minutes comes closest.

Originally Posted by Douglas H. Cole in Pyramid #4/33, "The Last Gasp", p. 11

This skill as written is basically a cinematic super-skill, since it’s more than twice as effective as Fit and has no down side.

It’s hard to go against Kromm, but Cole’s opinion is formally published. I’m at a loss on which way to fall on this one.

Esoteric Medicine

Originally Posted by B192

[Esoteric Medicine] should always be at least as good as First Aid…

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Low-Tech has details on what Esoteric Medicine can do in a realistic campaign. It's not as good as Physician/TL5, perhaps, but still of use. It can be used to negate the -5 to Surgery for characters who lack Physician, can be used as a (poorer) substitute for anaesthesia, and some other non-drug-related stuff from Low-Tech.

Indeed, I’m keeping Esoteric Medicine in the Mundane listing. But the fact that it’s listed at all means GM’s should consider if it is mundane in their campaign. I.e. Most mundane skills are not listed because (there are too many of them and) it’s safe to say no GM would ever consider them not mundane/realistic.

and all the rest

Originally Posted by Anthony

I disagree with many of these classifications:
Dreaming: simple lucid dreaming techniques are basically a hobby skill, and realistic enough. Using dreaming to improve your memory is cinematic, using it to resist malign supernatural influences requires the existence of malign supernatural influences and is thus Magical or Exotic.
Esoteric Medicine: actually useful alternate medical traditions are either magical/exotic, or they're some other medical skill at one of (a) a lower TL, (b) an alternate TL (e.g. 7+1 instead of 8), or (c) the same TL but using nonstandard techniques and vocabulary. Most of the examples given in the text are completely useless in a realistic setting.
Exorcism: this ability doesn't make sense outside settings with spirits. It's either Magical or occasionally Exotic.
Hidden Lore: as far as I can tell, Hidden Lore is just an Expert Skill that requires special permission to buy. I'm not sure why the skill exists (and why Occultism exists separately), but I agree that it's mundane.
Fortune-Telling: it might be nice to have a more generic 'grifter' skill, but yes, as presented here it's mundane.
Mind Block: this ability doesn't make sense outside settings with abilities that allow mind reading (and for some strange reason, only works against magical or psionic techniques), which makes it pretty clearly Exotic.
Religious Ritual: mundane (though unclear why it exists, it's a specialty of Perform); in a setting where priests have supernatural powers, stripping the priest of power (say, a zero mana/sanctity zone) is unlikely to make him unable to perform rituals, unless those rituals use supernatural techniques.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

[Dreaming, Exorcism, and Mind Block] are all mundane in the sense that you don't have be a mage, psi, etc. yourself in order to use them. Anyone can learn and use them.

Originally Posted by Anthony

I was taking 'realistic' to mean 'works in a realistic setting', not 'can be learned without cinematic or supernatural prerequisites'. Alchemy, Enthrallment, Herb Lore, and Ritual Magic are also 'mundane'.

Again, if they are listed as a Mundane skill, it’s not to insists that they are mundane, but flag them as borderline cases. I.e. while they may technically be mundane and realistic, the GM should consider if they are in his/her campaign or might consider banning them for having no utility in a mundane/realistic setting.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

...
Low-Tech has details on what Esoteric Medicine can do in a realistic campaign. It's not as good as Physician/TL5, perhaps, but still of use. It can be used to negate the -5 to Surgery for characters who lack Physician, can be used as a (poorer) substitute for anaesthesia, and some other non-drug-related stuff from Low-Tech.

Low Tech takes a very "optimistic" view on "alternative medicines".

Realistically, I would call it First Aid or Physician with a penalty based on faulty theories/superstitions.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, Esoteric Medicine has some sort of theory behind it be it 4 humors, chi flow or Ayurvedic-I-don't-really-know. It does not necessarily spring from pragmatic roots and does not normally allow a roll on the first Aid or Physician tables in Campaigns.

Esoteric Medicine is not promised to be at all effective. In our world 4 humors therapy was all a crock. Chemsitry(Phlogiston) could also be a "realistic" Skill in that it was at one time studied in the Real World and it didn't actually work either.

Should specific forms of Pseudoscience count as mundane, esoteric, cinematic, or what? That's the subjective question, in my opinion.

[David Johnston2]

The tricky part is skills that actually change what they do depending on the level of cinema in your diet. Hypnosis and Power Blow for example.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Low Tech takes a very "optimistic" view on "alternative medicines".

Realistically, I would call it First Aid or Physician with a penalty based on faulty theories/superstitions.

It's already penalised by the fact that it's a Hard skill that does only a little more than an Easy skill does (First Aid). Don't double-dip.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It's already penalised by the fact that it's a Hard skill that does only a little more than an Easy skill does (First Aid). Don't double-dip.

A successful roll should tell you what to do under the paradigm of the particular type of esoteric medicine involved. If that paradigm happens to be wrong, the result will be a failure, just like trying to use TL 5 medicine for a problem that lacks effective treatments until higher TL.