Will, what is it good for, huh?

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by Black Leviathan

Our Dungeon Fantasy GM uses a lot of Fear Checks and for those of us with a Will 10 from template it's a hard hard ride. My Barbarian ran into a spider the size of a dog and was so unnerved he threw up for the entire combat, granted he was a Halfling so it was a spider 1 size level bigger than he was.

There's a fair number of cool skills that are Will-Based as well.

I always hated that result on the table so I house-ruled it out. It's so much worse than the next 4 results on the table. I like the DFRPG fright check results so much better.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by corwyn

What is Resist Evil and where is it found? Do you mean Magic Resistance?

This is DFRPG, Resist Evil is an ability available to both Clerics and Holy Warriors, it boosts resistance rolls versus Evil supernatural attacks and costs 1 point per level.

Originally Posted by corwyn

Please explain this.

Your presuming the rolls are the same. I said "if you fail"...

Example, you rolled a 17, a failure, your foe rolled a 14*:

Attack-16 vs Will-16: Foe wins by 2
Attack-18 vs Will-16: Ditto
Attack-20 vs Will-16: Ditto
Attack-20 vs Will-18: Foe wins by 4

Why is this important? Many resisted abilities affect you based on your enemies Margin of Success and you've just handed them a larger margin (kinda niche, I know).

Hmmm. Okay, I can see a reason to go to 18, you guarantee your MoF is always 0†. Unless someone wants to argue that if your Will is an 18 and you roll a 17 your MoF is +1. I disagree (if you fail you have no positive margin IMO)... but I can see that argument‡.


* Why 14? Because it's a cruddy roll, but still greatly benefits if their skill is upped to 18.

† Not sure if it's RAW, but I've 'built' abilities that affect the victim based on their MoF and some based on the MoVictory/MoLoss.

‡ In which case, yes, another point in favor of a higher Will. Still pretty niche, but if you've got a concept or points to burn.

Attack-20 vs Will-22: Advantage, victim

This is fact. However is it worth it? If you are constantly facing foes with a "known" skill level, and high Fright Checks, and facing penalties on your Exorcism and Turning checks, and you love Intimidating enemies...

Yes. Buying up Will above 20 would be clearly worth it.

[Yssa]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Many resisted abilities affect you based on your enemies Margin of Success and you've just handed them a larger margin (kinda niche, I know).

Can you point to where this shows up? I like the idea, but the only spells I can find in DFRPG where margin of success matters (other than in the quick-contest against resistance) are non-resisted (irresistible?) spells.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by corwyn

What is Resist Evil and where is it found? Do you mean Magic Resistance?

Page 27 in the DFRPG Adventurers book.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Yssa

Can you point to where this shows up? I like the idea, but the only spells I can find in DFRPG where margin of success matters (other than in the quick-contest against resistance) are non-resisted (irresistible?) spells.

Huh. I guess it's just me that likes to make monsters with 'Margin of X' based effects.

There are four monsters in DFRPG that do MoF effects (Foul Bat, Fungus (Smoker), Jelly, Undead Slime) and a bunch of traps. But none of these are Will based...

[Kromm]

I'd like to point out a few things:

1. Exorcism. The Rule of 16 applies to supernatural attacks against subjects who are either living or have IQ 6+. This skill is not a supernatural attack; it's a mundane skill limited to a couple of professions that happen to specialize in the supernatural. It quite explicitly works via a Quick Contest, not a resistance roll ("This is a Quick Contest vs. the often high Will of the evil force possessing the area."). And regardless, curses and evil altars are neither living nor sapient – they're objects, and thus never subject to the Rule of 16.

2. Turning. The Rule of 16 is specifically called out here, but remember how it works: "There's a cap on the attacker's effective skill: 16 or the defender's actual resistance score, whichever is greater." So against Will 17+ undead, having Will 17+ is important. Also note that "Powerful monsters have their own bonuses: Resist Good counts, and magic-using monsters may add Magery or Power Investiture." Good luck even trying to turn an entry-level lich who has Will 18, Magery 6 if you have less than Will 24 (its resistance is 24, which is greater than 16, so that's where the cap is). Even Will 15 vampires and Will 16 specters with their optional Magery or Power Investiture get tricky. See also The Evil Dead (Monsters, p. 40) for ways resistance is likely to get very high.

3. Praying. See Last Ditch (Exploits, p. 90). While seeking guidance isn't a hugely valuable use of Meditation, praying is. "Roll vs. the highest of IQ, Meditation, or Theology, at a base -10, +1 per unspent character point permanently sacrificed, +1 per Holiness or Power Investiture level, and -3 for anybody with Social Stigma (Excommunicated)." So a basic cleric with IQ 14, Power Investiture 3, Meditation-12, and Theology-12 is rolling at 14 - 10 + 3 = 7 or less. Raising Will raises Meditation and makes this actually viable, as it's meant to be.

4. Fright Checks. While final, modified Will cannot exceed 13, there is no upper limit to penalties due to supernatural fear. As clerics generally confront the sorts of things liable to cause supernatural fear (notably specters, which may "cause penalized Fright Checks"), they might want to think about buying higher Will.

So I think clerics have great reasons to raise Will . . . these just have nothing to do with casting spells. A by-the-book cleric who does nothing but max out Will at 25 will have Exorcism-25 and be likely to knock down curses and cast out demons with Will up to 25; will reasonably be able to try turning greater undead with Will + Magery/Power Investiture + Resist Good up to 25; will have Meditation-23 and get prayers answered on 23 - 10 + 3 = 16 or less; and can absorb up to -12 in Fright Check penalties. They'll be really good at the primary functions of casting out Evil, calling down divine intervention, and not flinching in the face of The Devil.

But yeah, if all you want to do is play a heal-and-buff machine, and the GM never puts powerful curses, demons, and undead in your path, or has you confront entities that melt mortal minds or can't be defeated without your god at your side, you don't want Will. Invest the 55 points to raise Will 14 to 25 in +3 to Power Investiture [30], +1 to IQ [20], and just another +1 to Will [5].

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kromm

But yeah, if all you want to do is play a heal-and-buff machine, and the GM never puts powerful curses, demons, and undead in your path, or has you confront entities that melt mortal minds or can't be defeated without your god at your side, you don't want Will. Invest the 55 points to raise Will 14 to 25 in +3 to Power Investiture [30], +1 to IQ [20], and just another +1 to Will [5].

I hasten to point out that similar logic applies to all the boosted attribute limits for specific professions. "But yeah, if all you want your barbarian to be is a swordsman, and the GM never puts foes with high DR or HP in your path, or has you confront challenges like gates and obstacles that demand superhuman strength to budge, you don't want ST. Invest the 80 points to raise ST 17 to 25 in +4 to DX [80] so you'll be better at hitting things, defending, and running around."

It's incumbent upon the GM to bother to challenge the heroes. If the only enemies are big spiders, giant rats, horde pygmies, and swarms of vermin, with the occasional goblin or skeleton for variety, even ST 17 is overkill and yes, I'd just raise my barbarian's DX or play a swashbuckler to begin with. The same kind of thinking goes for clerics . . .

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'd like to point out a few things:

Ah, so apparently I was missing something.

Originally Posted by Kromm

So I think clerics have great reasons to raise Will . . . these just have nothing to do with casting spells.

I'm just curious about this. All the spell-casting templates in DFRPG use IQ+appropriate Advantage as their skill level in the spell. Did you consider varying this and maybe make some of the templates use another stat as a base for spell-casting?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

I'm just curious about this. All the spell-casting templates in DFRPG use IQ+appropriate Advantage as their skill level in the spell. Did you consider varying this and maybe make some of the templates use another stat as a base for spell-casting?

Yes, I did.

I did not consider using Will that way, though. I wanted all spellcasting talents to cost 10 points/level for simplicity's sake, and Will costs 5 points/level. I could've raised the price of Will – perhaps making it 10 points/level, or even treating it as independent of IQ – but that would've ruined compatibility with GURPS and also made Will a bad deal for everybody who doesn't use it to cast spells. I could have used some sort of formula, like (Will + 10)/2 or "half your levels of Will above 10" to get around those issues, but that would've added mathematical complexity. Ultimately, simplicity and compatibility were mission priorities.

The one I did consider was DX for bards, reasoning that they're kind of roguish swashbucklers who need DX anyway, and it's easy to imagine the deft fingers of, say, a harpist or flautist helping magical gestures. But it turned out that actually made bards more expensive owing to the need to also be good in the social and knowledge spheres. I didn't consider IQ + Charisma, or making Charisma an attribute, for pretty much exactly the reasons I gave for Will.

I briefly looked at HT for druids, too, on the grounds that HT is vitality and druids are all about life force. That's actually the one I most regret not doing.

But nothing prevents tinkerers from using a system that treats Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Health, Will, Perception, and Charisma as separate attributes. Pricing those would be tricky, and then you'd have to decide on which skills move from IQ to CH, although I think they're mostly obvious. But that's a discussion for the GURPS forum.

[Not]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yes, I did.



I briefly looked at HT for druids, too, on the grounds that HT is vitality and druids are all about life force. That's actually the one I most regret not doing.

But nothing prevents tinkerers from using a system that treats Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Health, Will, Perception, and Charisma as separate attributes. Pricing those would be tricky, and then you'd have to decide on which skills move from IQ to CH, although I think they're mostly obvious. But that's a discussion for the GURPS forum.

"The demonstration has been left as an exercise for the reader."

Fun summer project: druid reskinned as life-mage.