Attribute Adding Magic Items

[Nils_Lindeberg]

[QUOTE=Mike P.;2204373]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Nils,
I would say that experience gained while using it is lost if you lose the item, to stop this sort of abuse. If you wanted you could say, "I am 35% of the way to the next attribute so I lose enough so that I'm 35% of the way to next attribute with out it. (With no gain if I pick it up again.)"

Hi Rick, Hi Nils! Rick you pretty much hit on exactly how we handled this type of situation. While Argon (35 pts) wears his ring of +3 Dex, he gains exp. at a 40% rate (since his 800 xp needed to get his 36th point is 40% of the 2000xp he would need to gain his 39th attribute point.) So if he normally would have earned 100 xp after a session, he would only receive 40 if he had been wearing his ring. So he actually only needs the 800 to advance, but he is earning it at a reduced rate. If Argon does take the ring off he goes back to earning xp at the normal rate. This should avoid the type of abuse Nils pointed out. I was reluctant to detail this in my original post because it is a little more complicated.

Ok so either we let people earn Xp at different rates and then change the rate depending on xp level and magic items or we need to keep track of when they put an item on and how much XP they had at the time. Both seems a little bit too crunchy for me. I would rather have it as an add on. Just like the Charm items that are even more powerful.

I suggested earlier to use the rule of five on the total. Only the biggest item counts. A maximum of +5 in total attribute enchantment points. Each +1 extra is a new enchantment, so the doubling of cost will be in effect. And maybe make one if the ingredients hard to come by if one wants the items to be rare and not just something to buy over the counter. And the base price should probably be increased a little. Some one suggested 4k and that seems reasonable.


While talking about increased cost of attributes. How will talents be handled? Can you backtrack and see if a character has spent the right amount of XP or will it all depend on when and how and in what order (and possibly with what magic items active) the character spent the XP?

I prefer to be able to look at two identical characters and know they both spent the same amount of XP. But I am not sure that is possible with out either a straight cost for talents or extra talents being part of the attribute cost in some way?

[Rick_Smith]

[QUOTE=Nils_Lindeberg;2204408]

Originally Posted by Mike P.

Ok so either we let people earn Xp at different rates and then change the rate depending on xp level and magic items or we need to keep track of when they put an item on and how much XP they had at the time. Both seems a little bit too crunchy for me. ...

Hi Nils,
Actually in the system I suggested, you don't have to do that. All you need is the current attribute total, the size of the attribute adder, and the number of experience points you currently have.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

[QUOTE=Rick_Smith;2204435]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

Hi Nils,
Actually in the system I suggested, you don't have to do that. All you need is the current attribute total, the size of the attribute adder, and the number of experience points you currently have.

Warm regards, Rick.

Ok that seems doable. Does it take care off the outliers like picking up the item in the middle of a "level", keeping it for two increases and then getting rid of it in the middle of a "level". Will there be a difference if you keep it for the whole level and get rid of it just before you make the increase or just after the increase? Players will find holes like that if they get the chance to buy or sell them or even trade them between themselves at the right time. :-)

[Mike P.]

[QUOTE=Nils_Lindeberg;2204444]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Ok that seems doable. Does it take care off the outliers like picking up the item in the middle of a "level", keeping it for two increases and then getting rid of it in the middle of a "level". Will there be a difference if you keep it for the whole level and get rid of it just before you make the increase or just after the increase? Players will find holes like that if they get the chance to buy or sell them or even trade them between themselves at the right time. :-)

Hello Nils and Rick! I used to handle the attribute increasing items and Xp ala Rick's suggestion. However the player abuses of the system described by Nils, made me reevaluate and switch to the %system. Note they are basically the same thing as earning 2000 xp is the same as earning 800 at a 40% rate. Yes it is crunchy! : -) But... I feel it is worth it if you think attribute adding magic should make you advance as a higher attribute character.


In the old TFT the xp needed to advance only changed every 4 or 5 attribute points. A character with a +1 Dex ring only had to worry about taking his ring off to avoid an xp penalty at certain "plateau" levels, i.e. 36 points, 40 points, 45 points etc...(And yes the attribute increasing item would inevitably be leant to a friend til the character got over the hump.)


In the new TFT every single attribute point costs more than the next, so players would be faced with a new conundrum; Attribute increasing items would always have an associated exp cost/ or penalty, so at what point does the penalty (which gets larger and larger the more points you earn) discourage you from wearing the item?

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike P.

... The new TFT every single attribute point costs more than the next, so players would be faced with a new conundrum; Attribute increasing items would always have an associated exp cost/ or penalty, so at what point does the penalty (which gets larger and larger the more points you earn) discourage you from wearing the item?

Hello Nils, Mike, everyone.
Nils, there are no sweet spots for abuse. However, in my system, if you are swapping attribute adders back and forth, there are places where you lose more XP than others. If you use my system, you don't want to be swapping these items.

Mike, regardless of you use the % system described above, or my suggestion, the character is always rewarded for maxing out his or her attributes first, THEN putting on the attribute adder. This would be true pretty much in ANY system where attribute adders are considered to raise your attribute total for purposes of increasing the XP cost for new attributes.

So the trade off is... do you want to gain your remaining attributes slower, OR gain the advantage of the attribute adder right now?

I think that this is a reasonable trade off. Game play is based on interesting decisions, and the answer to this question is not obvious and will vary from player to player and depend on the situation.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

What about item that gives you a talent while you wear it? IF such items exist should they also increase the XP cost in any way?

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

What about item that gives you a talent while you wear it? IF such items exist should they also increase the XP cost in any way?

Hi Nils,
You make a very good point here.

I think that if you are wearing an attribute adding magic item, then the cost of attributes should rise.

So logically, if there were Talent adding magic items, then the cost to buy further talents should rise.

(Since talents and attributes each have their own independent progression rate this is easy to do. The same system could be used for both series.)

Warm regards, Rick.

[Mike P.]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

So the trade off is... do you want to gain your remaining attributes slower, OR gain the advantage of the attribute adder right now?

I think that this is a reasonable trade off. Game play is based on interesting decisions, and the answer to this question is not obvious and will vary from player to player and depend on the situation.

Warm regards, Rick.

Hi Rick, everyone. I agree with you about the trade off and the interesting decisions they pose. I would probably be more inclined as a player to wear a +1 Dex ring immediately as a low level player just to increase my chance at survival. I would probably hold off on a + 1 IQ item though unless I was a leader type, and even then I would have to think about it.

By the way Rick, I'm a longtime fan of your expanded weapons tables and some of your house rules which have found there ways into my campaigns!

[Mike P.]

Although I am in favor of allowing items that increase Attributes, I feel that +3 items might be to unbalancing. Lets take SJ's Ring of +3 Dex which started this thread. Before introducing this into a campaign we would have to consider the likelihood that this ring would be used by the entire party on a regular basis. The owner would gain the undeniable benefits that such an item would grant(especially in combat). The rogue would want to borrow it to pick locks, and pockets, and to remove traps. The wizard would borrow it to ensure his Dex rolls on non combat spells such as detect/analyze magic, healing, etc... Anybody who knew beforehand that they needed to make any ability check vs. Dex would want to borrow it.

Now the same +3 Dex on a small weapon is a much less powerful item. A +3 Dex dagger would only be effective if you had Swords or Knife Talent and then probably only in HTH. Unusable by the Wizard(unless it's silver, and even then it only benefits spells the Wiz. can cast with one hand). Also useless to assist in picking locks or removing traps (unless the GM rules these can be accomplished one handed).

Now unless I am missing something the +3 Dex ring and the +3 Dex dagger cost about the same to create, even though the ring is the far more powerful item. This inconsistency might need to be addressed in the new TFT if Attribute adding items are to be allowed.

[DouglasCole]

I hate to bring up that other game, but the no passing around rings of regeneration or trading around magical whosiwhatis is the reason fifth edition instituted the attunement concept. Basically, you can only attune to a few items at a time, which serves the same purpose as the maximum of +5 to bonuses, and it takes I believe a long rest, which is about eight hours, in order to achieve the level of bonding required to use the item. So if you want to pass around magical items, you better be ready to stay in place for the better part of a day.