The Woodsman Talent

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

How is 'spying' not a talent for hiding?

Hi Larsdangly.
Just read the talent description in the old TFT. It has nothing on hiding or camouflage. It allows you to: 1) Open doors and look thru them with out people noticing the door has been opened, 2) breaking pursuit (even close pursuit) by duking around a corner, and 3) moving inconspicuously so that people do not notice you. (None of which are a good description of what spies do or how they work.)

Warm regards, Rick.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Larsdangly.
Just read the talent description in the old TFT. It has nothing on hiding or camouflage. It allows you to: 1) Open doors and look thru them with out people noticing the door has been opened, 2) breaking pursuit (even close pursuit) by duking around a corner, and 3) moving inconspicuously so that people do not notice you. (None of which are a good description of what spies do or how they work.)

Warm regards, Rick.

I would say the Talent is not well named, but it's clearly intended to be about sneaking and hiding. The very first sentence is:

"This is the ability to move so inconspicuously that people will look right through you."

That, to me, means to be hidden; whether in plain sight or cover. I also infer that if it allows you to be unnoticed whilst moving it must also allow the same benefit when stationary.

Since the prerequisite is Silent Movement, I always took it to be the next level of that Talent, or the ultimate on stealth if you like.

As you point out, the Talent description lists 3 specific actions, but I never took these to be exclusive.

If we're going to start adding other Stealth/Camoflague Talents, then we need to remove this one to avoid duplication or confusion.

[Tenex]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

This can be handled well by a career set...

Jobs/skill sets don't address the inherent issues with the individual skills.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

This can be handled well by a career set...

Gamekeeper: Woodsman, move silent, spy, a ranged weapon, tracking.
Master Ranger: Woodsman, Alertness, Running, Climbing a ranged weapon, a melee weapon, naturalist, tracking
Ranger: woodsman, ranged weapon, melee weapon, naturalist, tracking.
Apprentice ranger: woodsman, tracking, a weapon.

Career paths like this can be used easily to flesh out a setting.

Back in the 2000s I toyed with this concept on the Brainiac Webring. I added Negative Talents to the package to keep the point cost down.

However, back then there was no 40pt cap, so you could have characters that reached 45pts. Because of that, they could be something else too, other than just their career. We'll have to wait to see how points, talents and memory work to see if a good packaging job will do what you want.

By the way The Brainiac TFT Archives (https://tft.brainiac.com/) has 20 years worth of TFT talk, insights and rants. What's been going on in this TFT Forum has been going on for two decades.

[Tenex]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

By the way The Brainiac TFT Archives (https://tft.brainiac.com/) has 20 years worth of TFT talk, insights and rants. What's been going on in this TFT Forum has been going on for two decades.

Yeah, but now we have a chance to influence the creator as he prepares to revise and rerelease TFT.

But thanks very much for the link. I will be perusing that.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I would say the Talent is not well named, but it's clearly intended to be about sneaking and hiding. ...

If we're going to start adding other Stealth/Camoflague Talents, then we need to remove this one to avoid duplication or confusion.

Hi Chris,
I think that if Spying is intended to include hiding and camouflage then it should say so in the talent, rather than hoping people assume it does. But do you think that people need to have IQ 13 before they can get good at hiding?

However, the main job of Spying is knowing 'trade craft', which allows you to run spy organizations while making it very difficult for people to notice your activities. I would be fine with making a Hiding talent at lower IQ, and have Spying be involved more in the spy craft side of things.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Chris,
I think that if Spying is intended to include hiding and camouflage then it should say so in the talent, rather than hoping people assume it does. But do you think that people need to have IQ 13 before they can get good at hiding?

However, the main job of Spying is knowing 'trade craft', which allows you to run spy organizations while making it very difficult for people to notice your activities. I would be fine with making a Hiding talent at lower IQ, and have Spying be involved more in the spy craft side of things.

Warm regards, Rick.

Rick, I agree that the Talent, if it stays, should be rewritten to more clearly state what it does. As to IQ, I always took that attribute to be as much about learning and experience as it was about raw intelligence, so I'm fine with IQ13. However, I'd also be fine with a hiding or concealment Talent at a lower IQ level if that's the way the new rules go.

[larsdangly]

The language throughout the talent list (at least the old one...) is a little loosey-goosey, so I always felt I had the liberty to interpret Spying as more or less equivalent to Runequest's Hide in Cover or D+D's Hide in Shadows. Anyway, I have always used it as the game's 'hide' ability.

As for IQ level, I can see why it was rated as it was. An IQ of 13 only seems high because we are used to thinking of it as the 'dump stat' for combat monsters. A ST or DX of 13 is good but not extraordinary, and by the same rights I would say an IQ of 13 shouldn't be thought of as eyebrow raising. If you want a character with pretty good 'tricks', then you should invest significantly in the 'trickiness' stat (IQ)

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

As to IQ, I always took that attribute to be as much about learning and experience as it was about raw intelligence

Or about willpower: IQ also includes it and inconspicuousness probably relies on it.

If there's an attribute TFT needs split it's intelligence-education from perception-willpower. So many characters should logically have one or the other but not both.

[zot]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Or about willpower: IQ also includes it and inconspicuousness probably relies on it.

If there's an attribute TFT needs split it's intelligence-education from perception-willpower. So many characters should logically have one or the other but not both.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of IQ being will power. In my games I'll be using the "middle-valued" attribute, whichever one that happens to be for the character in question, for will power, perception, courage, social adroitness, etc. along with talents to booster them.