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Old 04-17-2018, 12:16 AM   #11
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
ughhhhh I let one of my players take it because I mean.....kinda just was not paying enough attention really and did not realize how stupid good it was.
Well, your original post seems to suggest that you're allowing TL 9 as well as TL 8 armor. So, just could define the Advanced Body Armor as being low-to-midrange TL 9 body armor, rather than the best TL 8. There's absolutely stuff that will punch through it, even at TL 8, so I don't think it's too game-breaking to allow it. They'll be hard to hit with pistol bullets, sure, but they should still worry about big rifles, especially with armor-piercing rounds. And at TL 9, with the right ammunition, even large pistols can be a threat - someone with a TL 9 magnum pistol (4d+1 pi++ damage) loaded with APEP ammo (armor divisor 3) will, on average, get about 3.35 points of damage through, which is then multiplied for pi+ damage type. That will put some pain in most people's day.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:21 AM   #12
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
So I'm having a problem with a TL8/9 game I am running. the UT armor at TL 9 aside from like, the combat hard suits, dose not really seem much better at all then the HT armor, and in once case is MUCH worse. the TL 8 advanced body armor is DR 35/5* and concealable. The TL 9 concealable armor dose not even begin to approach that in effectiveness. The Reflex vest is 12/4* and the tactical vest, which is not concealable is 18/7* unless you include plates.
As others have said the advanced armor really does not exist as such.

But comparable armor value exists as "concealable armor" in that there are vest+trauma plate combinations and standalone trauma plates that are concealable under heavy clothing up to Class IV(about DR 48) in our very late TL 8 world.

Thus using the general TL progression for armor a late TL 9 one would have 1.5 times that DR value.

I do highly recommend the cutting edge armor design article in pyramid 3-85 if you want to build more current armor values and specially if you want to give more options.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:27 AM   #13
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
Ya, They have seen all of one piece of TL 9 gear so far and are not supposed to have access to any.
Well, if they're not really supposed to have TL 9 stuff, I'd suggest treating it as a prototype, basically. Those can come in before the full TL gets going, remember. Make it buggy and a hassle, and it will make sense as to why it's not more widespread. Some suggestions for bugs:
  • It's a massive pain to maintain. Like, takes an hour or more, with Armoury (Body Armor) rolls, after each fight it gets hit, or it loses 10% of its DR.
  • It's got dangerous chinks. Perhaps chinks give no DR, or there's a particular spot that's very easy to hit (the hit location with an additional -2, say, instead of the usual -10).
  • It leaks weird chemicals that (pick one): a) give the wearer a rash, making them itchy as long as they wear it, b) smell terrible, giving the wearer the equivalent of Bad Smell, c) are really super obvious to things like drug-sniffing dogs, chemical sensors, etc., making it hard to smuggle.
  • It's got no problems in and of itself, but the character managed to get their copy for some absurdly low price for some crazy reason. All future versions will be at least twice as expensive (the usual increase for being one TL ahead), if not more.
  • The one the character owns is some fluke that no one has been able to duplicate. Everybody (possibly including the original manufacturer) wants to take it off them in order to duplicate it.

These should be enough to be getting on with. I'm sure you can think of more.

Note that I'm not suggesting you just spring this on your player. The first step should really be to talk to them out-of-character, explain that you didn't realize the stats on the armor were quite so good, and that you need to impose some controls to help make the game and the setting make sense. If they want to just ditch the armor and use a less-effective but also less-expensive version, I'd say let them. Personally, though, I'd pitch the idea of it being a buggy prototype, because frankly I think that's more interesting, and I hope your player will as well.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:37 AM   #14
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by Kfireblade View Post
Ya, They have seen all of one piece of TL 9 gear so far and are not supposed to have access to any.
OK damn that's no good. How amenable will your player be to "look it's a mistake, can I swap it out with something else"?

If that's not on the cards how about narrowing the impact of it down a bit.

What's the main issue, is it the concealability? Don't forget that going by the rules box on pg66 this thing gets a -11 default penalty just on it's DR alone (35/3) so even with the +4 quality bonus its -7 to hold out.

(these rules raise their own questions regarding increasing DR with increasing TL actually)

In terms of sheer DR it's not actually better than vest and plates, but that does depend on how much you use the semi ablative rules for plates, and chinks/weak spots rules for rigid DR. There's also a slightly better improved assault armour in Pyramid 3/57 but it is heavy when maxed out for DR.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Well, if they're not really supposed to have TL 9 stuff, I'd suggest treating it as a prototype, basically. Those can come in before the full TL gets going, remember. Make it buggy and a hassle, and it will make sense as to why it's not more widespread. Some suggestions for bugs:
  • It's a massive pain to maintain. Like, takes an hour or more, with Armoury (Body Armor) rolls, after each fight it gets hit, or it loses 10% of its DR.
  • It's got dangerous chinks. Perhaps chinks give no DR, or there's a particular spot that's very easy to hit (the hit location with an additional -2, say, instead of the usual -10).
  • It leaks weird chemicals that (pick one): a) give the wearer a rash, making them itchy as long as they wear it, b) smell terrible, giving the wearer the equivalent of Bad Smell, c) are really super obvious to things like drug-sniffing dogs, chemical sensors, etc., making it hard to smuggle.
  • It's got no problems in and of itself, but the character managed to get their copy for some absurdly low price for some crazy reason. All future versions will be at least twice as expensive (the usual increase for being one TL ahead), if not more.
  • The one the character owns is some fluke that no one has been able to duplicate. Everybody (possibly including the original manufacturer) wants to take it off them in order to duplicate it.

These should be enough to be getting on with. I'm sure you can think of more.

Note that I'm not suggesting you just spring this on your player. The first step should really be to talk to them out-of-character, explain that you didn't realize the stats on the armor were quite so good, and that you need to impose some controls to help make the game and the setting make sense. If they want to just ditch the armor and use a less-effective but also less-expensive version, I'd say let them. Personally, though, I'd pitch the idea of it being a buggy prototype, because frankly I think that's more interesting, and I hope your player will as well.
Ya, I'm gonna have to talk to him about it and come up with a solution.
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Old 04-17-2018, 01:09 AM   #16
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
What's the main issue, is it the concealability? Don't forget that going by the rules box on pg66 this thing gets a -11 default penalty just on it's DR alone (35/3) so even with the +4 quality bonus its -7 to hold out.

(these rules raise their own questions regarding increasing DR with increasing TL actually)

Those rules are in High tech so meant to be use with those armors. Both the cutting edge armor design article and Ultra tech tailored armor says that the concealability is related to armor thickness not DR.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:42 AM   #17
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
Those rules are in High tech so meant to be use with those armors. Both the cutting edge armor design article and Ultra tech tailored armor says that the concealability is related to armor thickness not DR.
True, and they give different results, but there seem based on a different end result premise, the HT and LT* rules give specific modifiers to holdout. e.g "DR/3 for flexible" The Pyramid articles seem to have sub divisions that equate to specific example of ordinary clothes e.g "more than a quarter Max DR but less than half Max DR is like outer clothing" etc. (I don't have access to cutting edge at work only the later UT one are the rules the same?)

So it's going to come down to what is the DR 35/5 advanced body armour in HT made out of in terms of the pyramid articles, and thus what the Max DR would be, and therefore what fraction of it DR 35 is.


*Actually Dan Howard's article on concealed armour In Pyramid 3/53 although aimed at LT stuff makes some points that are I think general enough to apply at higher TL's as well

Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-17-2018 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 04-17-2018, 09:58 AM   #18
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
The Pyramid articles seem to have sub divisions that equate to specific example of ordinary clothes e.g "more than a quarter Max DR but less than half Max DR is like outer clothing" etc. (I don't have access to cutting edge at work only the later UT one are the rules the same?)
The pyramid article gives the values as fraction of "max DR" or the material, but the result categories are the same.

Quote:
So it's going to come down to what is the DR 35/5 advanced body armour in HT made out of in terms of the pyramid articles, and thus what the Max DR would be, and therefore what fraction of it DR 35 is.
As written it cannot be made of any of the materials as there is no material that gives lower value only vs crush.

But the HT description makes it to be Titanium Composite Scale in the article terms. Covering just the chest gives 1.155 lb/DR point or DR 15 and a base cost of 3466. The armor would be concealable under clothing or pass as ordinary civilian outerwear.

So the armor value is very wrong, but a 17lb Titanium Composite Scale would result in a concealable armor.

A 40lb DR 35 vest of the same material would be in the only heavy clothing conceal category.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:17 AM   #19
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

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Originally Posted by weby View Post
The pyramid article gives the values as fraction of "max DR" or the material, but the result categories are the same.
The rule in HT/LT gives you a very specific holdout penalty as a result of dividing DR by 3. In the case of the stuff in question this is -11 (bu get a +4 back due to the specific item bonus in the write up).

But the values given in the article are not penalties but rather general references to equivalent clothing type. i.e, there not values but rather descriptions. e.g "unconcealable heavy clothing", "outer clothing" "T-shirts", "dainty unmentionables"


These to me are not very similar end results just in terms of how the result in expressed.

I guess you could argue that -7 on hold out is somewhere between the first two categories?



Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
As written it cannot be made of any of the materials as there is no material that gives lower value only vs crush.

But the HT description makes it to be Titanium Composite Scale in the article terms. Covering just the chest gives 1.155 lb/DR point or DR 15 and a base cost of 3466. The armor would be concealable under clothing or pass as ordinary civilian outerwear.

So the armor value is very wrong, but a 17lb Titanium Composite Scale would result in a concealable armor.

A 40lb DR 35 vest of the same material would be in the only heavy clothing conceal category.
Cool cheers, (Titanium Composite Scale is in the HT article right?) as you say the two don't match up in performance anyway.
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:24 AM   #20
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Default Re: High tech armor vs Ultra-tech armor

The big problem with comparing DRs between various high tech armors is that GURPS likes to ignore coverage. The actual coverage of a pair of inserts is about 25% of the torso (though it's focused in areas that are relatively likely to be hit so the odds of giving protection are well over 25%); increasing coverage area increases weight but doesn't affect DR at all, and since GURPS doesn't list coverage for the smaller armor, has no game mechanical effect.
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