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Old 02-21-2017, 02:07 PM   #61
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Default Re: Some anti-materiel rifles I'm considering for the guards on Jewell Island

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Absolutely.

So, if you had $10,000 to spend for the most capable anti-materiel rifle, including all accessories (which has to include Night Vision 5-7), what would you get?

You can buy used, as long as someone with Armoury 12 can make sure the weapon is functionally as good as new.
Well, for anti-material use you do likely indeed want a .50. You should be able to get something like a used Steyr HS50 or a Barrett M99 in good condition at about $5000 with a bipod and the muzzle brake.

Then for the scope, I do not know what the perceived scenario is, but for purely/mostly anti-material use I would definitely go for a thermal vision instead of night vision as most such targets are nicely heat producing for the extra detection range and the low resolution does not matter that much and the additional detection capability also helps at daytime. You can get reasonable such in the $2000-$4000 dollar range. Something like the ATN thor series: https://www.atncorp.com/thermal-scope-thor-hd

Against people the thermal vision is nice for detecting, but for longer ranged shots the low resolution of the sensor compared to a good optic scope becomes limiting. (But then against long people as targets at long range I would likely go with the .338 anyway so...)

Also do not forget a laser range finder connected to your smart scope and the smartphone to control the electronics and such.

That still leaves you with some money for the cheaper extras.
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Old 02-21-2017, 03:57 PM   #62
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Default Re: Good value in anti-materiel rifles

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I know that the black-tipped AP round "Cartridge, Caliber .50, Ball, Armor Piercing, M2" is not supposed to be used for any other weapon than the M2 machine gun
What's your source for the prohibition? With more keywords, it may be possible to find something out.

This may be analogous to the MkVIII .303 British round, which wore barrels rather fast. This didn't matter for its use in the Vickers Gun, because the barrels were replaced regularly, but it was forbidden from use in rifles. This popularised it amongst riflemen ...
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Old 02-21-2017, 07:04 PM   #63
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Default Re: Good value in anti-materiel rifles

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
What's your source for the prohibition? With more keywords, it may be possible to find something out.

This may be analogous to the MkVIII .303 British round, which wore barrels rather fast. This didn't matter for its use in the Vickers Gun, because the barrels were replaced regularly, but it was forbidden from use in rifles. This popularised it amongst riflemen ...
All Internet sources seem to agree that the black-tip round is only meant for machine guns, not rifles, but I can't find a Field Manual.

As you say, it may be a maintainence issue that doesn't matter for short-term combat performance. I just don't know.
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Old 02-22-2017, 10:25 AM   #64
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Default Re: Some anti-materiel rifles I'm considering for the guards on Jewell Island

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On the rifles:

Personal favorite:
The Sako TRG-42 in .338 LM is my personal all time favorite rifle by far. I have shot a lot of different rifles over the years, but this rifle is just a beauty. I do not think there is an "economy" model, at least I have not heard of it. The only real variations I have heard about are the two barrel lengths. I think most of the price differences come from the accessories like the muzzle brake, accessory rails and folding stock(I hear this is a pretty expensive option).

Basically I shot a friend's short barrel version few times and could immediately shoot better with it than with any rifle before, So not many months later I bought my own long barrel version and it has been my favorite since..
What did you pay for the rifle?

The GM has clarified that there are three 'special' rifles meant for defence against any attack on the island.* These rifles don't all have to be the same model or even the same caliber.

Anti-materiel performance is key for what the guards bought the rifles for, but that's not to say that a .338 Lapua Magnum rifle might not be better than a .50 BMG for certain things; like shots at a fast-moving helicopter and/or a counter-sharpshooter role.

I think that two .50 BMG rifles and one .338 Lapua Magnum rifle might be a nice complement.

Upon a review of the tactical realities on Jewell Island, the GM indicated that a lighter semi-automatic rifle in a flat-shooting caliber might also have been bought by the guards. I'm also looking for ideas for a rifle platform (and accessories) for rapid fire against potentially fast-moving targets, in extreme cases at up to 1,300 yds, with the primary emphasis on performance at 400-800 yds.

*Which most likely means a law enforcement response, by the Coast Guard.
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Old 02-22-2017, 11:50 AM   #65
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Default Re: Some anti-materiel rifles I'm considering for the guards on Jewell Island

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post

Upon a review of the tactical realities on Jewell Island, the GM indicated that a lighter semi-automatic rifle in a flat-shooting caliber might also have been bought by the guards. I'm also looking for ideas for a rifle platform (and accessories) for rapid fire against potentially fast-moving targets, in extreme cases at up to 1,300 yds, with the primary emphasis on performance at 400-800 yds.
Semiauto rifles are very uncommon in calibers beefier than .308. 300 Winchester magnum is the most common "next step up" from .308. The M110 SASS (.308) has an effective range of 875 yards; the M2010 is bolt action and rated effective to 1300 yards. High Tech lists the FN BAR Magnum in 300 WM with recoil 4. That's a detachable magazine semiauto, but I doubt you'll be doing much rapid fire with that recoil.
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:36 PM   #66
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Default Re: Some anti-materiel rifles I'm considering for the guards on Jewell Island

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What did you pay for the rifle?
I cannot remember exactly as it is more than 10 years ago and I bought a few accessories like the Sako bipod(pretty expensive but good) and at the same time. I think it was a total of about 4000 euros with the tax(22%) at time.

After inflation I would expect it thus to be about $/€ 4000 without tax, but cannot say.

Quote:
The GM has clarified that there are three 'special' rifles meant for defence against any attack on the island.* These rifles don't all have to be the same model or even the same caliber.

Anti-materiel performance is key for what the guards bought the rifles for, but that's not to say that a .338 Lapua Magnum rifle might not be better than a .50 BMG for certain things; like shots at a fast-moving helicopter and/or a counter-sharpshooter role.

I think that two .50 BMG rifles and one .338 Lapua Magnum rifle might be a nice complement.
Could likely be a good mix then, yes.

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Upon a review of the tactical realities on Jewell Island, the GM indicated that a lighter semi-automatic rifle in a flat-shooting caliber might also have been bought by the guards. I'm also looking for ideas for a rifle platform (and accessories) for rapid fire against potentially fast-moving targets, in extreme cases at up to 1,300 yds, with the primary emphasis on performance at 400-800 yds.
The 400-800 yard range rapid fire requirement is really best filled by a different rifle than the longer one. Even a good quality AR15 based rifle with heavy barrel and a scope works well for the up to 800 yard range, though it is definitely not flat firing at those ranges.

But if your primary targets will be helicopters or speed boats then a .308 Winchester is a more likely choice.

(or in case of your story, maybe they have just a bunch of old M14s that were also "accidentally" left there and then the best of those have then been worked on by a gunsmith... )
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Old 02-22-2017, 12:46 PM   #67
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Default Re: Some anti-materiel rifles I'm considering for the guards on Jewell Island

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Originally Posted by clu2415 View Post
Semiauto rifles are very uncommon in calibers beefier than .308. 300 Winchester magnum is the most common "next step up" from .308. The M110 SASS (.308) has an effective range of 875 yards; the M2010 is bolt action and rated effective to 1300 yards. High Tech lists the FN BAR Magnum in 300 WM with recoil 4. That's a detachable magazine semiauto, but I doubt you'll be doing much rapid fire with that recoil.
I was considering either a rifle chambered in .300 Win Mag or an AR-10 type rifle chambered for a popular short-action long-range round, something like .260 Remington, 6.547 Lapua, 6mm Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmoor or 647 Lapua.

The .300 Win Mag clearly has the ballistic performance, but are there semi-automatic rifles with a high magazine capacity for it?

I hear there were major problems with the .300 RSAUM in an AR-10 rifle, but ultimately, something in the same performance envelope is what they'd have been looking for.

From what our characters can tell, the military ordnance that remains on Jewell Island is already a lot more than they need for any kind of base security requirement in the real world. They've got real heavy weapons in the towers, an M2HB machine gun and an Mk 19 grenade launcher, and seem to have some platoon-level machine guns as well; an unknown number of M240B GPMGs, with a mininum of two of them, for covering the other side of the towers.

When you add that the M2HB and the Mk 19 are equipped with AN/PAS-13 thermal weapon sights, there's already more than enough firepower in the towers to ensure that nothing is likely to survive in the open on Jewell Island unless the guards allow it to. If they really felt they needed more capability, adding night vision of some sort to the M240B machine guns, maybe a decent optics to a few of their M16A2 and a tactical .308 rifle or two for the best shots would surely be more practical purchases than several $10,000 rifles.

Unless the GM decides otherwise, I'll assume that the obvious improvements to the equipment they already had was taken care of before purchasing expensive new rifles. I'm also assuming that underlying the massive purchases of survivalist gear and weapons specifically designed to defend against law enforcement personnel were some kind of paranoid delusions of behalf of Warden Tyrrell and one or more of his loyalists.

In other words, while almost no one in the real world is very concerned with eking out maximum combat performance in GURPS terms from their equipment, it is actually possible that a group of delusional security guards on an island with a bunch of criminally insane people might have made opted for considerably more awesome firepower than really was called for.

Not to mention that their strategic plan seems to be... absent. No group of 20-40 people can fight the US government and a plan to defend their Jewell Island from all comers is inherently a losing plan, because the US will just keep upping their response and they have no way to prevent that.

Yet, for all their delusions, most of them have points in several skills like Armoury, Boating, Guns, Hiking, Knot-Tying, Mechanic, Navigation, Seamanship, Soldier, Survival and Tactics. And at least the quartermaster-type has Merchant 12+. So they'll be get good value for money, even if the stuff they are buying will ultimately prove futile against the overwhelming force of the US federal government.

Until then, of course, it may prove entirely too effective against our characters. As things stand now, Chase Taylor (my PC) is unarmed, with his hands on his head, facing three guards with M16A2 rifles and two orderlies with M9 pistols. Danny O'Toole (PC2) is pinned down* in an empty office is an abandoned cellar level, with an M9 pistol, facing anywhere from four to eight guards, apparently armed with full SRT gear, assault rifles, grenades, riot gear, etc. The rest of the PCs and their NPC allies are unarmed, in hiding, and one NPC has already taken a bullet and is being 'helped' with default First Aid.

And we haven't even been outside yet. Where the really scary guns are.

*If it weren't for the PK Shield Danny hurriedly raised with his telekinetic power when he was fired upon, he'd probably be bleeding out by now. He'd have taken three 5.56x45mm rounds, one to each thigh and one to the neck.
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Old 02-25-2017, 10:02 PM   #68
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

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Another popular threat to correctional officers is being bashed over the head with blunt force, in particular the classic improvised sap of a heavy object in a sock . . . I'm not offhand familiar with any place that issues helmets to deal with this
The GM decreed that only the SRT guards trained and equipped to handle riots or other extreme situations had helmets.

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Prisons often have smooth floors of painted concrete or linoleum, and can get wet, so wise COs get non skid boots or shoes (dependent on regulations may get steel or composite toes, but prison may ban this). Rocky, Bates, 5.11, Brazos, Under Armour, Danner, Shoes for Crews are some popular brands (a CO may own several pairs of boots or shoes, so can air and dry between use).

Sharp protective gloves will be bought and used if allowed, as offenders need to be patted down and cells searched.
Good points, done.

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In addition to concealable vests, there should be suits of riot armor for cell entry teams and the like. These definitely should include face protection. Surprisingly they may not include hand protection, as the team needs to be able to use and apply hand and leg restraints. The cell may be a mess of water and chemical agents and the offender may have stripped down to be harder to grab
The riot gear possessed by the SRT guards does not include face protection. To their detriment.

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Various improvised weapons may be carried as well. For instance some keys may be massive 'dungeon' type keys the span of a forearm, there may be pry bar type tools for opening food tray slots, or institutional grade kitchen thermometers for checking food is kept at safe temperatures
The guards at Manhanock Asylum certainly learned that anything from a tie to a metal bar from a hospital bed can be dangerous improvised weapons.

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Ideally all your staff should have a radio and a body alarm
Wow! Thanks for that note. I had totally forgotten the body alarm. The GM has now made a note that the guards carry one, which might very well turn out to be important in case a guard is not mentally or physically stunned on the second they see the PCs.

Guard Roy is the only guard to have gotten a combat turn against Taylor and he opted to use his Mace instead of doing anything else. At the time, neither me nor the GM considered body alarms when Roy had two seconds available to do something upon being attacked and he just Readied a can of Mace and tried to attack with it, but justifying it retroactively, he must have failed his IQ check under pressure.
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Old 02-28-2017, 04:06 AM   #69
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Default Fine (Accurate) Tactical Rifles

Does anyone know of real-world assault rifles, carbines or tactical rifles that legitimately rate Fine (Accurate) in GURPS terms?

That is, is the modifier realistically only appropriate for accurised sniper rifles* or can you get Acc 6 tactical rifles with barrels between 16" to 18.5"?

Are there any Acc 5 carbines, i.e. weapons with 10" to 15" barrels that are Fine (Accurate)?

I suspect that as an exercise in perverted ingenuity, such weapons might be custom made, but I don't know if the $1,200 to $1,800 cost that GURPS suggests they should have is realistic for such a custom weapon.

Are there any commercially available weapons that forumites think ought to rate Fine (Accurate) despite being fairly short-barrelled and handy?

I'm considering this both for future reference, in case our characters survive Jewell Island and our handlers at Onyx Rain don't decide to immure us in a worse place, and for Warden Tyrrell and his close cronies. If the guard force has purchases a lot of survivalist gear and three anti-material rifles, as well as a semi-automatic sharpshooter's rifle, it's plausible that Warden Tyrrell and his closest confidantes might have obtained some tacti-cool weapons in 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm.

Platforms that fit the backstory would be M16/AR-15 rifles and whatever the Coast Guard was using for a marksman role in the 80s and 90s, as Warden Tyrrell used these in his military service.

I'm considering some possibilities like drop-in parts for an M16A2 that make it Fine (Accurate) and reduce the barrel length down to 16"-18", if these modifications are ever compatible. Another possibility would be a commercial copy of the M14 Tactical or the Mk 14 EBR or a similar weapon, but if it is possible to get an Acc 6 rifle for less than $2,000, as the rules for Fine (Accurate) suggest, then that would be really attractive.

I don't want our characters shot with dangerous, high Acc rifles, but my hands are tied. As Assistant GM it is my unquestionable duty to consider ways that the guard force could present an even direr threat, as they have been established in setting as having spent considerable time and resources on preparing for an apocalyptic struggle with the lizard people and the shadow government.**

Then again, it is a Technothriller as much as it is a Supers game. Obviously the named villain and his henchmen need fancier hardware than the standard issue we got from ordinary guards and in a technothriller, I'd prefer if all that fancy hardware had model and brand names.

*Maybe having unforeseen drawbacks or costing much more than GURPS rules suggest if added to weapons that are usually mass produced in numbers like military assault rifles.
**Well, at least some of them have. Did I mention they are nuts? It's likely that their insanity comes in different flavours, though, but that won't affect the fact that someone has been buying survivalist stuff on behalf of the security company they ostansibly work for like The End is Nigh.
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Old 02-28-2017, 12:22 PM   #70
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Default Re: [Modern Firepower] Technothriller gear for secret DHS team in 2017

According to HT, the M4A1 has ACC 4 while the M16A1 has 5. I guess this is due to the shorter sight radius? More accurate barrels are about how carefully the barrel is machined. You can have an 8-10" barrel made with the same mechanical accuracy as a sniper rifle. Barrel length affects velocity, so at long range you will deliver less energy and have a longer bullet flight time (harder to hit moving targets).

A 16" barrelled AR-15 can use a 14-15" long railed hanguard and have the same sight radius as a 20" barrel M16A1, and using a scope makes the sight radius superfluous anyway. Without knowing exactly why the M4 got docked a point of accuracy, I don't know what you can do to or if you can get that back.

However, high quality barrels for AR-15s are all over the place and replacement trigger groups are everywhere. A high grade trigger like a Jewell or Geisselle talong with a high quality barrel from someone like White Oak Armament, Wilson Combat, or Krieger would definitely get you +1 ACC. That's basically what the US's SDM-R is. $1600 is reasonable for a complete rifle with an adjustable stock, comfy grip, etc, but just a barrel and trigger group would cost way less than that and provide the majority of the improvement. $6-700 is definitely doable for an upgrade to an AR-15, but for any other gun you're looking at a lot more.

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