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Old 06-11-2015, 09:19 AM   #11
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Back when I made my Mass and Volume system, I worked out what the Disadvantage value of "intrinsic encumbrance" (that is, weight that counts against encumbrance) would be. It turns out to be around [-1] for every +BL/10 lb up to +2*BL, after which point it is [-1] for every +3*BL/10 lb. You'd incorporate these as Temporary Disadvantages.

Stealth/Holdout/etc penalties should be covered with Temporary Disadvantage: Noisy. DX penalties for things like thigh armor would simply be Temporary Disadvantage: Reduced DX. The helmet can serve to negate the character's Peripheral Vision Advantage (if applicable) and may give further vision penalties, all as a Temporary Disadvantage. Cannot Wear Armor -40% may be appropriate, although I'd drop that to -20% or so if you're able to layer it with flexible armor (but note you'll be taking a DX penalty when doing so). You should probably build the full Advantage, then use that as the base cost to apply Gadget and Preparation Required Limitations. Realistically, you should probably have boosted DR on the the Skull and Chest, reduced on the Neck and Joints. Presence of Armor Gaps may be worth -5%.
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:39 AM   #12
kabson
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
I don't see why would you want to do something like this... could you add some context so we can try to further pin what you're looking for?
Fair question. This stems from a few thoughts about abstracting away some areas of GURPS. In this case money during character creation, or advantages that add money.

That lead me to ponder... If you're spending cp to get money, and that money is used to buy benefits for the character, then are you actually getting your cp's worth? I thought armor was a good place to start as it's a big-ticket item and relatively simple to design. (I wouldn't want to see all equipment as points, just some of the character-defining items that are so important during character creation).

So, a suit of basic plate costs, say, $2500, then, that would be 5pts of signature gear... How does that compare to ~5 DR with those heavy parentheses of limitations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
Your best bet is Signature Gear, imo. Keep in mind Gadget rules specifically say that you _shouldn't_ build purchaseable gear with character points or charge players CPs for such mundane items...
Ultimately I think you're right, the advice not to do this is sound. But curiosity got the better of me, and I thought some of you GURPS forum regulars might enjoy the challenge.

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Originally Posted by T.K. View Post
BUT If you really want to build armor for points, I'd do something along these lines:

Plate Set

DR 8 [40] + Noisy 2 [-4] + Restricted Vision: No Peripheral Vision [-15] (Cannot Wear Plate Armor, -20%* ; Nuisance Effect: Weights 80 pounds, -15% ; Nuisance Effect: Difficult to stealth and easy to notice, -5% ; Nuisance Effect: Fully armored/Looking for trouble/-2 Reactions, -10% ; Preparation Required: 1min to don armor, -20% ; Breakable: Needs Special Repair, -25% ; Can be Stolen: Not immediately work for the thief, -5%) [5]

* DR has a limitation of "Cannot Wear Armor" as -40%. Since I want to portrait that the character cannot use another Plate set but CAN use a Leather or Cloth set under his Plate set, I'm judging that limitation is only worth half it's normal value, thus using 20% only and allowing the use of a supposed Leather/Cloth set produced this way to represent layering.

So, basically, a complete Plate set that covers all your body (except eyes) giving DR 8 but is noisy giving -2 to stealth rolls, reducing peripheral vision as a Legion Helm, needs to be donned which takes 1min and weights 80 pounds costs 5 CPs.
That's very much the kind of thing I was hoping for. Thank you. I especially like the 'looking for trouble' penalty.

If we really get into the mechanics, could 'weight' as a nuisance effect become -1 move? Or even a modified ST penalty? (oh, wait. No, that's terrible. That's bypassing the encumbrance system, which is an entirely different kettle of fish).

Last edited by kabson; 06-11-2015 at 10:12 AM. Reason: oh wait...
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:48 AM   #13
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

The problem with Sig gear is that very nice armor soon well exceeds the price of just buying DR
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Old 06-11-2015, 09:56 AM   #14
kabson
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

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Originally Posted by Joe View Post
I don't know why Smeette wants it, but the reason I want it is to compare the point-effectiveness of DF Knights with a hypothetical DF Beefcake Barbarian template: a Conan-style Barbarian with no wilderness skills but heaps of Arnie-style bulletproof nudity. (As per this old thread).

It's never seemed quite right to me that the Knight can get heaps of DR with cash, and my hypothetical Beefcake Barbarian needs to buy it with points - even though furry underwear often trumps full field plate in much of the source material.
Just a thought.
That's a much more practical question, but I think you've got the same motivation - comparing the two currencies (cp and $).
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Old 06-11-2015, 11:04 AM   #15
Joe
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

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Originally Posted by Smeette View Post
That's a much more practical question, but I think you've got the same motivation - comparing the two currencies (cp and $).
Yes - that's definitely the more fundamental question. Putting it really roughly: if points=character power, but also money=character power, then you really start to wonder "how many points=how much money? - and you don't want to just handwave it and declare a value, because getting it right matters for all sorts of bigger issues.

I often think that many of the more complex puzzles in GURPS design would be easier to solve if we had a different solution to this kind of problem.

The obvious snarls are with the value of signature gear and points-for-cash, but there are also a whole bunch of less obvious run-on effects. For example:
  • In the Wealth system
  • In any attempt to make a magic-as-powers system balanced in relation to having gear.
  • In everything relating to TL (e.g., high TL gear is vastly, vastly more effective than low TL gear, and the two thus compare very differently to buying powers with points)
  • It also causes problems whenever you try to compare the effectiveness of gear-heavy character archetypes with gear-light character archetypes: just sticking with Dungeon Fantasy, comparing the Knight to a DF Conan-style Barbarian is one example, but the relative combat ineffectiveness of the DF Martial Artist is also very much related to this. In some respect, teh same applies to traditional wizard-types, also.

I wouldn't want to go all the way over into the points-for-all-equipment territory, but I often want to find some way to move a little more in that direction.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:02 AM   #16
T.K.
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeette View Post
Fair question. This stems from a few thoughts about abstracting away some areas of GURPS. In this case money during character creation, or advantages that add money.

That lead me to ponder... If you're spending cp to get money, and that money is used to buy benefits for the character, then are you actually getting your cp's worth? I thought armor was a good place to start as it's a big-ticket item and relatively simple to design. (I wouldn't want to see all equipment as points, just some of the character-defining items that are so important during character creation).

So, a suit of basic plate costs, say, $2500, then, that would be 5pts of signature gear... How does that compare to ~5 DR with those heavy parentheses of limitations.



Ultimately I think you're right, the advice not to do this is sound. But curiosity got the better of me, and I thought some of you GURPS forum regulars might enjoy the challenge.



That's very much the kind of thing I was hoping for. Thank you. I especially like the 'looking for trouble' penalty.

If we really get into the mechanics, could 'weight' as a nuisance effect become -1 move? Or even a modified ST penalty? (oh, wait. No, that's terrible. That's bypassing the encumbrance system, which is an entirely different kettle of fish).
Well, you see...the exact description you gave of "character-defining items" is Signature Gear niche.

I would only go the route of building items as powers/abilities for characters if they're indeed intended to be said powers and abilities, much alike Marvel Iron Man, for example where his equipment is what grant him the ability to fly, withstand heavy punishment, shoot beams...

On the weight... well, the reason why I went with weight instead of any shenanigans of Move or ST modifiers is imply that due to weight you get secondary effects on all of that:

Depending on your ST level, you'll get encumbered and move less due to the heavy weight ( a ST-10 character would be moving at 2 or even 1hex per turn with that most of the time); You'll loose Dodge if you're not strong enough as well, so I believe it suits all the hindrances such armor should bring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe View Post
Yes - that's definitely the more fundamental question. Putting it really roughly: if points=character power, but also money=character power, then you really start to wonder "how many points=how much money? - and you don't want to just handwave it and declare a value, because getting it right matters for all sorts of bigger issues.

I often think that many of the more complex puzzles in GURPS design would be easier to solve if we had a different solution to this kind of problem.

The obvious snarls are with the value of signature gear and points-for-cash, but there are also a whole bunch of less obvious run-on effects. For example:
  • In the Wealth system
  • In any attempt to make a magic-as-powers system balanced in relation to having gear.
  • In everything relating to TL (e.g., high TL gear is vastly, vastly more effective than low TL gear, and the two thus compare very differently to buying powers with points)
  • It also causes problems whenever you try to compare the effectiveness of gear-heavy character archetypes with gear-light character archetypes: just sticking with Dungeon Fantasy, comparing the Knight to a DF Conan-style Barbarian is one example, but the relative combat ineffectiveness of the DF Martial Artist is also very much related to this. In some respect, teh same applies to traditional wizard-types, also.

I wouldn't want to go all the way over into the points-for-all-equipment territory, but I often want to find some way to move a little more in that direction.
Well...at the end of the day...why not go with the simplistic approach and going the other way around and use the ratio found on Wealth or Signature Gear for CP > $ ?

What I mean is: 1 CP > 50% average starting wealth, per Sig Gear.

I understand trying to calculate and evaluate if that balance is indeed adequate, but besides the exercise to see if the system is balanced between its multifacets, I find it not adding anything valuable to the game, plot or history, that it shouldn't be bothered with.
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Old 08-24-2016, 03:19 PM   #17
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

"Arise!" spoke the thread necromancer.
I decided to try a mostly realistic knight whose shtick is the absolute best armor money can buy using Low Tech with all the bells and whistles. His plate comes out to a few hundred thousand dollars. Ain't no way buying that with points to cash or Signature Gear would cost fewer points than straight up D.R.
So, what do?
Averaging and simplifying the coverage comes out to probably limited DR 7 for no more than 35 points vs. the insane wealth or Sig. Gear needed for near $400k. The perk cheaper gear, metal armor of his armorer family could knock off 40%, but it's still not competitive points-wise.

Edit: If there's a more recent or on topic thread, I couldn't find it.
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Last edited by Flyndaran; 08-24-2016 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 08-24-2016, 03:22 PM   #18
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

Soon, very soon, someone will want to know how build a spoon with points.
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Old 08-24-2016, 03:32 PM   #19
Flyndaran
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Soon, very soon, someone will want to know how build a spoon with points.
Spoons that save your life, usually weigh dozens of pounds, and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, sure. Otherwise, your post doesn't seem on topic.

Edit: You must be new to not have heard of the... muffin discussion.
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Last edited by Flyndaran; 08-24-2016 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 08-24-2016, 03:32 PM   #20
Kalzazz
 
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Default Re: Armor for points, not money

The very best Low Tech armor can both easily outstrip 7 DR and 400k

I'm not sure whether you can have duplex and hardened. But masterfully tailored, duplex, fluted DR 14 chest is a thing, and then other stuff on other parts of body etc
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