Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Nose66

Unfortunately, the example prayers in the document are little help. For example, Spirit Weapon. That is such a convoluted prayer for so little damage.

It's not particularly convoluted - it's just not about causing damage. Spirit Weapon is primarily, by both description and point investment, about being able to hit (evil supernatural) insubstantial targets with weapons.

Plus it burns a bit. Aside from style and a modest but appreciable damage bump, that could be important against creatures that are resistant to weapons but not burning damage, or are particularly vulnerable to holy energies.

Originally Posted by Nose66

Is it just not allowed to have small, low cost damage prayers in Divine Favor? All because of the vague as hell (my opinion only), strictures on page 5?

Yes, that's pretty straightforward and people have been saying that throughout the thread. If you want a subtle low-level combat prayer, build some kind of buff, not a damage spell.

You can change that! Divine Favor's mechanical structure doesn't rely on the flavor constraints. In a setting where small, low-cost damage prayers are appropriate, go ahead and roll them out! I certainly would in a dungeon fantasy sort of setting.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Nose66

Is it just not allowed to have small, low cost damage prayers in Divine Favor? All because of the vague as hell (my opinion only), strictures on page 5?

It's allowed if you allow it. Those are guidelines, not strictures, not rules. Whether you use them is a world-building decision and worldbuilding is the GM's job.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Nose66

Heck, it even seems more powerful than a "Good" reaction, the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc.

What? No way is 2d+2 pi- more powerful than "knowing what your enemies are doing" or "holding off a horde of evil spirits"!

And jamming an enemies gun has just stopped 2d+ damage, and possibly for more than one round!

[Nose66]

And a side question, Divine Favor, page 6 states:

There is one significant limitation to learned prayers, however. Because a learned prayer involves going “outside the system” to tap directly into your god’s power, it takes all of your Divine Favor strength to maintain it. You may thus only ever have one learned prayer in use at any given time. In fact, any other use (or even attempted use) of Divine Favor – whether a general, specific, or learned prayer – will immediately shut off any ongoing learned prayer

Later on, the spell Consecrated Ground uses the enhancement "Extended Duration, Permanent" and says "This lasts indefinitely, though future actions can cause it to fade or disappear, from supernatural attacks to those guarding the area acting against their faith’s tenets."

Can I assume that the original injunction is just the thematic justification for why you can't have two alternate abilities on at the same time, and that prayers with the "Extended Duration, Permanent" enhancement do not immediately shut off if another prayer is invoked?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Nose66

And a side question, Divine Favor, page 6 states:


Later on, the spell Consecrated Ground uses the enhancement "Extended Duration, Permanent" and says "This lasts indefinitely, though future actions can cause it to fade or disappear, from supernatural attacks to those guarding the area acting against their faith’s tenets."

Can I assume that the original injunction is just the thematic justification for why you can't have two alternate abilities on at the same time, and that prayers with the "Extended Duration, Permanent" enhancement do not immediately shut off if another prayer is invoked?

The prayer immediately shuts off.

Which has no effect on the consecrated ground. The ground is subject to a permanent Affliction. That the Favored character no longer possesses the ability to perform that Affliction doesn't make the Affliction that's already there go away.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Nose66

My player has built a simple prayer Razor Leaves (based on Universal Eggplant's spell https://enragedeggplant.blogspot.com...nt-spells.html).

I probably wouldn't allow this a prayer, but not because of the point value. My issue with it is that it doesn't really feel like a miracle, it feels like a spell (which makes sense, given it's built off a spell).

For an alternative that's built on a 2d+2 innate attack, how about this?

Branch Drop
Learned Prerequisite: Divine Favor 5
Learned Prayer Cost: 4 points.
The trees aid you in the most direct way they can - by dropping a branch on the head of an enemy! This prayer only works in places where there are branches overhead - most places in a forest, but elsewhere, the target will have to be standing underneath an actual tree. Make an attack roll, with normal range modifiers, to target the right area, a 2-yard radius circle. Every person within the area selected is then attacked, with skill 14, by a falling branch. Since this comes from above, it ignores cover that doesn't protect from above, has no penalties for crouching, kneeling, or prone targets, and can't be blocked unless a target had previously stated they were focusing their shield above them instead of in front. If the attack hits, it does 2d+2 crushing damage.

Statistics: Crushing Attack 2d+2 (Area Effect, 2 yards, +50%; Bombardment, skill 14, -5%; Environmental, rare, areas with branches above them, -40%; Overhead, +30%).


This satisfies Divine Favor's criteria, I feel - a branch dropping on someone's head is a "believable coincidence".

Originally Posted by Nose66

Unfortunately, the example prayers in the document are little help. For example, Spirit Weapon. That is such a convoluted prayer for so little damage.

I think Spirit Weapon's damage is low because it can't be much higher without pushing it over the limit into a major blessing, because the basic ability just to affect insubstantial beings is eating up a fair bit of the points.

Originally Posted by Nose66

Is it just not allowed to have small, low cost damage prayers in Divine Favor?

You are allowed those, you just have to make them fit the guidelines. Or exercise your perogative as GM and say that something works even if it doesn't precisely fit the guidelines. The only risk there is that if you allow too many things that don't fit the guidelines, it'll stop feeling like the Divine Favor system.

Another useful thing to keep in mind is that against obviously-supernatural opponents, you can relax the considerations about miracles being "subtle". Spirit Weapon is a good example, actually - because it's only useful against insubstantial creatures, who are obviously spirits, it's allowed to be a bit more blatant otherwise, burning its targets. Similarly, if you wanted to make up a prayer that set your hands alight with holy light that burned the undead, I'd probably allow that as a minor blessing, as long as the point cost was in the right ballpark.

Originally Posted by Nose66

Later on, the spell Consecrated Ground uses the enhancement "Extended Duration, Permanent" and says "This lasts indefinitely, though future actions can cause it to fade or disappear, from supernatural attacks to those guarding the area acting against their faith’s tenets."

Can I assume that the original injunction is just the thematic justification for why you can't have two alternate abilities on at the same time, and that prayers with the "Extended Duration, Permanent" enhancement do not immediately shut off if another prayer is invoked?

No, the distinction here is that the advantage used for Consecrate Ground, Affliction, is what's called a "transient" ability, rather than an "ongoing" one. Transient abilities have a duration independent of you maintaining them, and don't switch off when you switch Alternate Abilities. The compensating limitation is that you can't switch them off early, either - they have their listed duration and run that out, even if it would be more convenient for you to end them early.

[ravenfish]

It should be born in mind that the strictures that low-cost miracles should not be flashy are not primarily for game balance, but to mimic the fact that, in reality and in many genres of fiction, the miracles worked by those who claim to be divinely favored tend to closely resemble coincidences (compare the number of recent Catholic saints whose qualifying miracle was causing remission of a disease that occasionally goes into remission to the number whose qualifying miracle was healing an amputation). If the campaign setting does not resemble the real world in this respect, but resembles instead Faerun or Mythic Israel where "miracle workers" are thick on the ground, the guidelines can (and perhaps should) be relaxed a good deal.

[Nose66]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

No, the distinction here is that the advantage used for Consecrate Ground, Affliction, is what's called a "transient" ability, rather than an "ongoing" one. Transient abilities have a duration independent of you maintaining them, and don't switch off when you switch Alternate Abilities. The compensating limitation is that you can't switch them off early, either - they have their listed duration and run that out, even if it would be more convenient for you to end them early.

Oh!!! That actually helps. I was leaning towards the "direct damage" type of cleric because I couldn't figure out how to make a "buffing" cleric. It seemed that if a cleric cast a "buff" like prayer (Affliction 1 (HT, Advantage "...", Fixed Duration, etc.)) the "buff" would just disappear when the cleric cast a new spell.

So are you saying the Advantage that was "afflicted" stays in effect for the duration of the Affliction, even though the Affliction itself is cancelled? It seems to be that way when you look at Consecrated Ground, but I was unsure.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Nose66

So are you saying the Advantage that was "afflicted" stays in effect for the duration of the Affliction, even though the Affliction itself is cancelled?

Yes, that's correct.