Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Brass Bricks

In my Aestas fantasy campaign, I had an issue with PC's wanting to blast and mindrape in the center of town, with impunity. So, I dug up some old Ars Magica stuff, combined it with the rules for legality codes and magic, and created a set of laws, a historical reason for them, and an enforcement system. It seemed to work.

The nice ting about Ars Magica is that the consquences of social laws within the setting are realistic. A law saying it is illegal to traffic with demons doesn't mean it never happens. It only means that it happens less often than it otherwise would, and in greater secrecy.

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Another reminder; I am going with 3e rules because that is what I currently have in front of me. If 4e works differently, then one might want to consider reverting back to these rules, as they seem fairly balanced.

Ceremonial Magic works almost exactly the same in 4e as it did in 3e. You get the same amount of energy, in the same amount of time, etc.

Yes... but some you gave seemed to harsh; great for evil PCs that are living weapons and in the service of a despot or just not well thought out. If that was intentional, good job; I mean that, as it is sadly all too realistic.

Most of those were taken right out of fantasy books I've read. The first two were just variations of the Aes Sedai oaths in Wheel of Time.

The last few seem much more well thought out, again assuming you weren't intentionally messing with your players by having overreaching laws with those first few. I can still see some objecting to some of the above, but they aren't as outright.

Those last few are taken straight from The Dresden Files laws of magic.

If you're going to a war the people believe in and they like both the government and the mage in question, it would be much easier. That should only happen when the story justifies it; even a "just war" is a scary thing, and commoners and unskilled workers aren't part of the main army for a reason. You also are expending resources to reliably select spectators: people that are literally dirt poor and are considered property of the king, attached to the land like common serfs are probably pretty easy to bribe... as are many royals that think this is the best shot at the crown.

I think you're assuming that they just find 100 random people and tell them to help the mage. I'm not.

Personally, I think Ceremonial Magic is something most people who play GURPS just skip over. It's never been used well in GURPS material that I've seen. Frankly, it's probably something most GM's probably just want to not allow in their games, because if you allow it, I think it would change most games.

In a world with Ceremonial Magic, most mages are probably going to have at least 100 assistants, who've been hand picked by the mage and are regular employees. If the mage is really poor, maybe he'll have less. If he's competent, he'll probably have more than 100, so that people can takes days off/get sick and he can still cast at full strength.

Think of these assistants as Apprentices, etc. They work for the mage, have had training (although it doesn't take much), and probably get paid/live better than most to do a really easy job (which amounts to chanting or holding a candle).

Why is each mage going to have assistants? Because with assistants mages can change the entire world.

They'd be able to create the Pyramids in a day (maybe a week), cure all sickness, halt aging, and on and on. Here's just a few examples, acomplished by 1 Mage, with assistants.

Copy: Everyone would have books.
Create Food: No more hunger!
Boil Water: Poof! Steampunk!
Charge Powerstone: Lots more energy for mages.
Clean: Make an entire castle spotless in seconds. No more dirty towns.
Halt Aging: People (at least the rich) live forever.
Youth! . . . and they are young.
Enslave: Evil Overlords made easier...
Bind Spirit: Your bad guys just got a LOT badder...

Now you've got to feed, transport, protect, and coordinate these people.

And you will, because they are the most important part of your army.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Doesn't DF also declare a lot of spells, besides the ones you mention, to be "NPC only"?

Probably, but I only mentioned DF because it had a few changes for some of the broken spells in Magic. (Mainly the world destroying Enlarge spell). DF itself doesn't even allow players to take Enchantment spells.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Snaps

In a world with Ceremonial Magic, most mages are probably going to have at least 100 assistants, who've been hand picked by the mage and are regular employees. .

Maybe not as obvious as you think. Let's say that "Working Mage" is a Comfortable Job supporting a status 1 lifestyle. It takes a lot less prereqs than Enchanter. The mage needs to rake in $1200 a month just to cover his Lifestyle.

Then let's say that "Candle-holder" (Ceremonial Assistant) is a Struggling Job covering a status -1 lifestyle requiring $300.

Since a mage can provide up to 10 energy if he knows the spell he's worth 10 non-mage assistants. Yet he has to pay the assistants $3000 for bare living as opposed to the $1200 he pays himself. The Mage who knows Recover Energy at 15 can provide as much energy per day as 20 Candle-holders.

Even if there aren't enough mages to satisfy the possible demand Ceremonial Magic can only compete with Mage-only casting (even if it's only 1 Mage) when a single Mage can't provide entrance level service.

The conversation with the potential buyer goes something like this. "If I do it myself it'll take 10 months and cost $2400. If I hire a big gang of assistants it'll take 1 month and cost 2 and 1/2 times as much." (and it might be 5x as much). Only people who need the speed will go for the higher price.

The exception is Spells with base costs over 10 of course and the few saleable Area Spells where you can gain the full benefits of the bigger Area.

The other exception of course is when the assistants are working for free because it's I their own interest such as when they help the local Druid Bless their crops.

Not everything is going to be done with Ceremonial Magic. Especially not when you have to pay for it.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Since a mage can provide up to 10 energy if he knows the spell he's worth 10 non-mage assistants.

Except that each assistant can recover fatigue separately. However, I agree in practice -- mages who don't specialize in spells costing more than 10 fatigue will probably have a lend ST wand and not use ceremonial magic.

[Mr_Sandman]

Sometimes when I see threads about how certain magic spells would break the economy or the world, I wonder if the assumption is that just because a spell might exist in a game world that it is easily available for anyone with magery to learn.

Magic spells could be jealously guarded trade secrets, passed on from master to apprentice in exchange for years of difficult service, or taught in small, extraordinarily competitive schools, that require exhorbitant tuition and possibly other service or sacrifice.

Mages could spend years searching to expand their grimoires, and consciously avoid revealing their most powerful spells in public, for fear word could get out and more powerful wizards would come looking to take the knowledge. Spells that could make a mage a fortune, or destroy a city would be guarded the way the formula for Coke or nuclear secrets are, and for the same reasons.

That also gives magic using characters a motivation for adventuring and exploring -- the chance that they could find an ancient scroll, a spell book, or a teacher who will provide a new spell to expand their knowledge.

[Flyndaran]

Useful secrets get out no matter how well guarded. Real world conspiracies rarely last long. Either way it's not different in effect than just having mages themselves be rare.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Useful secrets get out no matter how well guarded. Real world conspiracies rarely last long. Either way it's not different in effect than just having mages themselves be rare.

"We noticed you casting magic back there. We don't rightly know you and so we have to ask you to prove that you are a chartered member of the mage guild; or we'll have to take your eyes, tongue and hands as punishment for the crime of unlawful magic. Resist, and you'll just burn," says the guardsman to the surrounded wandering mage.

Useful secrets stay secret if you kill, maim and/or cripple those who discover them without your permission. Guilds are all about protecting useful secrets and, with the support of the ruling class who benefit from the guilds, are quite willing to destroy you for possessing them without them owning you lock, stock and barrel.

[reddir]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Useful secrets stay secret if you kill, maim and/or cripple those who discover them without your permission. Guilds are all about protecting useful secrets and, with the support of the ruling class who benefit from the guilds, are quite willing to destroy you for possessing them without them owning you lock, stock and barrel.

Guilds are very much in-line with TL 3-4, at least from our own history.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

Sometimes when I see threads about how certain magic spells would break the economy or the world, I wonder if the assumption is that just because a spell might exist in a game world that it is easily available for anyone with magery to learn.

Generally speaking, if PCs can learn the spell without an Unusual Background or adventuring to acquire the spell, that spell must be easily available.

[ClayDowling]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Generally speaking, if PCs can learn the spell without an Unusual Background or adventuring to acquire the spell, that spell must be easily available.

There is nothing which prevents you from requiring an unusual background to learn that spell in your game. There's nothing which says you can't just drop that spell entirely from your game if it's going to be a problem.

Again, this is principally a social contract issue. Don't play with jerks who are going to wreck your game.