Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc.

fifiste · 07-22-2013, 04:11 AM

So if I try to run some not too deeply thought out pseudo-medieval renaissance gameworld for that's so common in pen and paper and computerized RPG-s. I'm thinking of more DF or PC game style slashy game if you get my drift - hard to put down but probably you know where I'm directed. Something not too much of a brain teaser and high intrigue politics and economics etc. :D.
Considering that I am not going to hand-wave totally everything, and that there might be munchkins or just curious people in the gaming group ...
What effects will standard magic have on a game-world .. when I say that take the characters/magic standard colleges and spell list and just use it. What are the spells or effects to keep an eye on that could wreck havoc on suspension of disbelief for example. Or something ridiculous like the - make 10ft poles out of ladders= profit in that other game.
What would happen if I'd said well have this magic book and all the spells are there just use the prereq chains etc like they are I do not care as long as its in the book. What would the world look when let's say there are 1% people with magery 0, and 0.1% with magery 1 etc.

Polydamas · 07-22-2013, 05:15 AM

That has been a very popular topic in the past, and searching "Earth to Stone" or "economics AND magic" will turn up many huge threads.

The short answer is that GURPS Magic contains many spells which don't belong in the same setting, and that the only way to find a set of spells which has the right feeling for your setting is to go through each spell. This PDF will fix the worst problems.

GURPS Magic is geared towards small-scale, short-term, short-range effects. Attack spells are about as powerful as edged weapons, and spells which can disable someone instantly are limited. So rather than summoning castles and immolating rooms full of soldiers, GURPS Magic mages can make many small effects such as creating a section of stone wall, opening a lock, or throwing a fireball which is about as powerful as a crossbow bolt.

Refplace · 07-22-2013, 05:31 AM

If magic is really rare it can be handwaived with little effect.
If mages are common enough to create magic items then it can have a huge effect.

gilbertocarlos · 07-22-2013, 12:49 PM

The problem is essential earth, essential metal etc...

Flyndaran · 07-22-2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

The problem is essential earth, essential metal etc...

Element to element, and create element are also setting altering. But really all magic is setting altering if used intelligently. It's magic! Rarity, GM fiat, or maybe Gods/spirits keep mages on their toes and from getting to mercantile.

reddir · 07-22-2013, 01:01 PM

It might not be so bad if there were no magic items. With only a relatively few people who can do magic, the economies might be able to adjust.

Otaku · 07-22-2013, 10:02 PM

Don't forget how many things "go wrong" in the real world to prevent something from being used to its fullest extent. Besides "No one thought of it sooner" or "No one successfully mainstreamed it sooner" (which might be too close to hand-waving it), the-powers-that-be like to remain the-powers-that-be and magic is notorious for being fickle.

Want enchanters (and their creations) to be relatively easy to find but don't want enchanted objects completely turning the world upside down? Maybe finding an Enchanter or Enchanted Items is easy... but finding ones that are affordable and trustworthy is a challenge. Or maybe they are easy to find (relatively speaking) in the wilderness, but any within the kingdom either need licensing by the crown or else are considered dangerous criminals. There may be several magical creatures attracted to enchanted items... etc.

You can do this for almost any area where magic would "logically" have made a significant change in the world. Travel and communication spells might not be used for anything of importance because of the risk of them being intercepted, misdirected, or altered. In many ways, it is a lot like managing Ultra-Tech.

whswhs · 07-22-2013, 10:42 PM

Most classic fantasy settings have rare magic practiced by a small number of wizards and witches thinly scattered in a larger population. A much, much larger population. Merlin or Gandalf or Granny Weatherwax may be scary powerful, but there's only one of them, and they're going to use their powers to do the most important stuff; they aren't going to have the time for mundane jobs. If you assume that maybe one person in a thousand has Magery 0, and a lot of those only learn a couple of spells, then magic won't disrupt your medieval world a lot.

Bill Stoddard

Agemegos · 07-22-2013, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs

Most classic fantasy settings have rare magic practiced by a small number of wizards and witches thinly scattered in a larger population. A much, much larger population. Merlin or Gandalf or Granny Weatherwax may be scary powerful, but there's only one of them, and they're going to use their powers to do the most important stuff; they aren't going to have the time for mundane jobs. If you assume that maybe one person in a thousand has Magery 0, and a lot of those only learn a couple of spells, then magic won't disrupt your medieval world a lot.

But does that leave a PC with Magery and a portfolio of cannily-chosen spells in a position to cut a swathe through any opposition?

Anthony · 07-22-2013, 11:01 PM

Standard magic has a lot of problems, ranging from industrial spells (e.g. the Earth spells above), to plot-breaking stuff (many information spells are grossly overpowered), to literally world-breaking (there are ways of destroying planets for less than 100 energy), to mind-controlled legions, to making a mockery of point totals (exchange bodies, spells with energy costs based on point total, such as Golem or Lich), to causality problems (hello time travel). It's basically only fixable by declaring that this campaign doesn't care about plausibility (which many games don't -- but GURPS Magic doesn't even do cinematic very well), changing several rules, or severely hacking the available spell list.

07-22-2013, 04:11 AM	#1
fifiste Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Estonia	Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. So if I try to run some not too deeply thought out pseudo-medieval renaissance gameworld for that's so common in pen and paper and computerized RPG-s. I'm thinking of more DF or PC game style slashy game if you get my drift - hard to put down but probably you know where I'm directed. Something not too much of a brain teaser and high intrigue politics and economics etc. :D. Considering that I am not going to hand-wave totally everything, and that there might be munchkins or just curious people in the gaming group ... What effects will standard magic have on a game-world .. when I say that take the characters/magic standard colleges and spell list and just use it. What are the spells or effects to keep an eye on that could wreck havoc on suspension of disbelief for example. Or something ridiculous like the - make 10ft poles out of ladders= profit in that other game. What would happen if I'd said well have this magic book and all the spells are there just use the prereq chains etc like they are I do not care as long as its in the book. What would the world look when let's say there are 1% people with magery 0, and 0.1% with magery 1 etc.

07-22-2013, 05:15 AM	#2
Polydamas Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Central Europe	Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. That has been a very popular topic in the past, and searching "Earth to Stone" or "economics AND magic" will turn up many huge threads. The short answer is that GURPS Magic contains many spells which don't belong in the same setting, and that the only way to find a set of spells which has the right feeling for your setting is to go through each spell. This PDF will fix the worst problems. GURPS Magic is geared towards small-scale, short-term, short-range effects. Attack spells are about as powerful as edged weapons, and spells which can disable someone instantly are limited. So rather than summoning castles and immolating rooms full of soldiers, GURPS Magic mages can make many small effects such as creating a section of stone wall, opening a lock, or throwing a fireball which is about as powerful as a crossbow bolt. __________________ "It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 07-22-2013 at 05:22 AM.

07-22-2013, 05:31 AM	#3
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. If magic is really rare it can be handwaived with little effect. If mages are common enough to create magic items then it can have a huge effect. __________________ My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more! My GURPS fan contribution and blog: REFPLace GURPS Landing Page My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items) My GURPS Wiki entries

07-22-2013, 12:49 PM	#4
gilbertocarlos Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil	Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. The problem is essential earth, essential metal etc...

07-22-2013, 01:01 PM	#6
reddir Join Date: Dec 2008	Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. It might not be so bad if there were no magic items. With only a relatively few people who can do magic, the economies might be able to adjust.

07-22-2013, 10:02 PM	#7
Otaku Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: South Dakota, USA	Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. Don't forget how many things "go wrong" in the real world to prevent something from being used to its fullest extent. Besides "No one thought of it sooner" or "No one successfully mainstreamed it sooner" (which might be too close to hand-waving it), the-powers-that-be like to remain the-powers-that-be and magic is notorious for being fickle. Want enchanters (and their creations) to be relatively easy to find but don't want enchanted objects completely turning the world upside down? Maybe finding an Enchanter or Enchanted Items is easy... but finding ones that are affordable and trustworthy is a challenge. Or maybe they are easy to find (relatively speaking) in the wilderness, but any within the kingdom either need licensing by the crown or else are considered dangerous criminals. There may be several magical creatures attracted to enchanted items... etc. You can do this for almost any area where magic would "logically" have made a significant change in the world. Travel and communication spells might not be used for anything of importance because of the risk of them being intercepted, misdirected, or altered. In many ways, it is a lot like managing Ultra-Tech. __________________ My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)

07-22-2013, 10:42 PM	#8
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. Most classic fantasy settings have rare magic practiced by a small number of wizards and witches thinly scattered in a larger population. A much, much larger population. Merlin or Gandalf or Granny Weatherwax may be scary powerful, but there's only one of them, and they're going to use their powers to do the most important stuff; they aren't going to have the time for mundane jobs. If you assume that maybe one person in a thousand has Magery 0, and a lot of those only learn a couple of spells, then magic won't disrupt your medieval world a lot. Bill Stoddard

07-22-2013, 11:01 PM	#10
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: Standard magic - effect on gameworld, playability etc. Standard magic has a lot of problems, ranging from industrial spells (e.g. the Earth spells above), to plot-breaking stuff (many information spells are grossly overpowered), to literally world-breaking (there are ways of destroying planets for less than 100 energy), to mind-controlled legions, to making a mockery of point totals (exchange bodies, spells with energy costs based on point total, such as Golem or Lich), to causality problems (hello time travel). It's basically only fixable by declaring that this campaign doesn't care about plausibility (which many games don't -- but GURPS Magic doesn't even do cinematic very well), changing several rules, or severely hacking the available spell list.