Advantages Are Not Utility Priced

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Basically, ST is the best way to inflict lots of damage -- if all the better methods are banned. ST is a lousy way to do damage if guns or innate attack are available. Also, the returns on 'more damage' diminish faster than the returns on 'more skill', once your damage per hit is more than about 10 skill tends to be more efficient than ST even in a low-tech game with no powers.

Point being that Striking ST doesn't feel like such a bad deal in a realistic low-tech game, or even in a medieval fantasy game where Innate Attacks are limited to a relative handful of pre-built abilities (as they are in Dungeon Fantasy). The point about diminishing returns is interesting... but even that depends on things like enemy DR.

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Basically, ST is the best way to inflict lots of damage -- if all the better methods are banned. ST is a lousy way to do damage if guns or innate attack are available.

Unless you're in a UT setting where people wear power armour (and even in most UT settings they do not), higher strength = bigger guns = more damage.

[Joel]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Low level night vision (3-5 levels) is probably underpriced in any game that bothers to track light at all, but hyperspectral isn't a notable offender in terms of cost. On the other hand, clinging + catfall + super-jump 1 is a perfectly reasonable conceptual design, costs 40 points and, well, isn't anywhere as good as flight (also 40 points, and moves twice as fast with no limit on fall distance, distance from wall, or upper altitude). There isn't even the excuse of one being more common than the other, the super-acrobat is a very common concept.

True, but you could build to the same concept using Flight with Requires Surface instead. I actually think this in general tends to be true in GURPS; there are characters where the price you'd pay for certain advantages aren't worth it, but you can generally build to any concept and stay reasonably effective. It's f.ex. also true that buying loads of Damage Resistance is generally a waste of points, but the concept of being super-though is still perfectly viable with just a bit of DR + IT:DR.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Joel

Unless you're in a UT setting where people wear power armour (and even in most UT settings they do not), higher strength = bigger guns = more damage.

The big problem is that guns for ST13-17 are few and far between, while guns for ST18+ have unwieldy grips such that they're not usable even with ST50 without a penalty (unless mounted, at which point ST is irrelevant again).

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The big problem is that guns for ST13-17 are few and far between, while guns for ST18+ have unwieldy grips such that they're not usable even with ST50 without a penalty (unless mounted, at which point ST is irrelevant again).

Ahhhh, a succinct explanation for why I need GURPS Armourer's Handbook.

Even so, though, guns don't scale. An M16 requires ST (Whatever) and that's it. It doesn't matter if you're ST 11, ST 15, or ST 50, an M16 still requires only ST X and that's it.

You can't comb through the rifles list and find a variant M16 for ST 11, ST 15 or ST 50. Thus, it's certainly worthy to give aliens a bonus to ST, as they'll mass-produce guns meant to take advantage of their higher strength, but it's less useful to vary your individuals character's strength much higher than the baseline because there's unlikely to be many weapons that will leverage that small increase to make much of a difference.

[Joel]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

The big problem is that guns for ST13-17 are few and far between, while guns for ST18+ have unwieldy grips such that they're not usable even with ST50 without a penalty (unless mounted, at which point ST is irrelevant again).

"unwieldy grips"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Is there some rule I am not aware of that means that f.ex. the minigun (ST: 15M) or Heavy Chaingun (ST: 20M) etc. aren't perfectly usable as LMGs if you have 15 or 20 strength? That's certainly not how the description of the M tag in basics makes is seem.

[Mathulhu]

I found something particularly pertinent when I was reading a blog yesterday about point by systems. I think it was by someone who posts on these forums. It applies to a couple of threads that have cropped up recently.

Point buy systems aren't about making characters equally powerful they are for giving characters equal choice.

I would add to this that it is the GMs responsibility to ensure that these choices are rewarded.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Joel

"unwieldy grips"

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Is there some rule I am not aware of that means that f.ex. the minigun (ST: 15M) or Heavy Chaingun (ST: 20M) etc. aren't perfectly usable as LMGs if you have 15 or 20 strength? That's certainly not how the description of the M tag in basics makes is seem.

Here's the short explanation-quote series:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Removing the M removes the need for a mount. Having ST alone won't help if the MG has no stock, pistol grip, etc.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Looking over at what M says on B270, I actually don't see that limitation. All it says is that detaching a mount takes 3 seconds or more.

([ . . . ] it isn't clear that M makes weapons non-usable without Army Of One when you do have the ST.)

Originally Posted by Kromm

The M does represent actual hardware that may be needed for the weapon to work. It's used that way on many weapons throughout High-Tech, for instance. You can't just have enough ST and suddenly make the gun work differently . . . say, if you rip it from a fighting vehicle. This perk lets you pull the guns off big robots and tanks, and somehow shoot them.

Nothing in the Basic Set description suggests that the only effect of the mount is to allow use without fantastic ST. All that note tells you is that if you have a heavy weapon that could be used off the mount, you'll need lots of ST to operate it. It should be clear that "usually mounted in a vehicle" implies things like controls.

The basic idea here is to allow the dumb stunts you see in movies: Firing a machine gun that uses a mount as a "third hand" even though you lack three hands, however strong you are. Shooting down a helicopter and then ripping the rocket pod from the wreckage. That sort of thing. Being the Hulk alone doesn't make such things work for you . . .

As noted in the thread, Army of One does solve all those issues, but it's an extremely over-the-top cinematic perk.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Here's the short explanation-quote series:


As noted in the thread, Army of One does solve all those issues, but it's an extremely over-the-top cinematic perk.

Quite a few weapons of this kind do have stocks, pistol grips and so on. The M-240 for example. I think Kromm is talking about weapons that aren't designed like that, like the M-2 with its butterfly triggers.

Apologies to Owen Smith, but I am not going to look up the British nicknames for these in my phone.

[fifiste]

If you start the game with a get go then your Heavy starts with his own Sasha.
Custom made, firing hand crafted bullets :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHgZh4GV9G0
Because thereäs no mass produced guns with pistol grips etc at such weight and caliber doesnät mean that he himself couldnät have some custom jobs.

Still limits the options considerably - can't just pick up any random stuff lying on the batllefield, but you know adding some carry rig to your hand-cannon should be nothing insurmountable, considering you have the strength and build to carry and handle and operate it.