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Old 04-02-2012, 02:55 AM   #41
Kuroshima
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Don't have much time to read the replies. Will do so tomorrow. But, thanks everyone, for the help and advice.

I'll admit, I'm a little nervous. Everyone's using pre-gens and the dungeon still isn't 100% finished or play-tested. Hopefully, this week I'll be able to get everything done. I've been writing this dungeon for about a year, so this isn't a quickly-thrown together idea, but some of the details aren't polished. I need the pre-gens first so that I can play-test the combat.
Will you share? Or better, will you try to get it past SJG and get it published as a DF adventure? (if possible complete with the pregens)?

On combat, remember that new players are less good at it than experienced players, and that tactics can turn a total party kill into a cakewalk (and vice versa). Me, I design encounters as kobayashi marus, and it's the player's actions by thinking outside the box that allow them to survive.
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I didn't have time to work on the characters today, though I would very much have liked to have don so.

It looks like it's going to be a party of four on Sunday, April 8: (Half-ogre?) Barbarian; dwarf Knight; female (wood?) elf Scout; and a (human?) Cleric. Since there's no thief, I'm going to make the Scout as thief-like as possible.
  • Barbarian: Don't disregard the gnome barbarian, and the dwarf barbarian. I recommend the gnome barbarian myself, as the cleric player won't need to worry about his spells costing double on him. The dwarf barbarian also combos well, given that dwarf+anything that uses axes is awesome.
  • Knight: Dwarf is thematic and awesome.
  • Scout: Wood Elf is a solid choice, specially if you're not planning on advancement. Mountain Elf is another solid option though, but that's mainly on a slightly longer term. On both, remember that you're getting -1 ST, and that's going to hurt, you will need to add a point of striking ST to get to odd leveled ST, as bows use thrust damage. Weapon Master isn't that good for thrust based attacks until effective ST 19 (base ST 13+2 striking ST+2 Elven bow+2 Strongbow)
  • Cleric: Even if you have to make sacrifices in other areas, get Power investiture 6 and Bless. It's completely worth it. Recommended race: Celestial, but keep the stats at the level required by the template (Half Celestial comes with 60 points in stats), or human.
Other options:
  • Swashbuckler: The barbarian and the scout both cover the survival specialist niches (specially once you factor in Forest Guardian). I would trade the the barbarian for a swashbuckler, specially if you don't plan on having much in the way of wilderness for the adventure. Solid races: Half Ogre, Catfolk
  • Bard: Only if you plan on allowing non-combat solutions to monster encounters. Also, look at the bard songs in DF11, if you're willing to go beyond DF3. Solid races: Nymph.
  • Holy Warrior: Abuse Blessed (Heroic Feats), and kick ass in the name of the lord. If you're willing to go slightly off the rails, Warrior Saints (from Dungeon Saints, in Pyramid #3/36) are a much better rendition IMHO of this character concept, but I'm not unbiased, and you would need to have GURPS Powers: Divine Favor. Solid races: Celestial, Human, Dwarf
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Of course, we still may get a fifth, but I doubt it.

One of the players will be my friend with whom I'm currently visiting. The other three, I won't have ever met until we sit down at the table to play.


Very, very true, and that's one of the two reasons I'm re-making Chandley's dwarf killing machine; to make certain I understand everything about him myself. But, Chandley's right; really the only thing I saw that was complicated was the multi-weapon axe.

I don't mind people in this thread going wild with the min-maxing -- as long as they stick with RAW DF 1-3. But, what actually makes it into my game will be simple characters. Since I've never made DF characters, I need to build upon others experience to make certain I'm going in the right direction. Chandley showed just how well a dwarf with pickaxe penchant works, so I'm making a dwarf knight in that fashion.

As far as personalities are going to be concerned, I'll probably pick the disadvantages with them at the table. "You wanted to play the elf Scout? Tell me about their personality. Oh yes? How does this disadvantage sound? The pre-gen comes with this disadvantage. Is that alright?"

After some character tweaking and discussion, we'll run through the basics of combat and success rolls (e.g., climbing). Then, on to the dungeon!
One (dirty?) trick to play with races is that you are allowed to treat the template's attribute values as minimums when it is convenient (so you can have a pixie knight with ST 9, but a celestial cleric or holly warrior with the standard stats). This makes some race comboes cost you negative points.
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Last edited by Kuroshima; 04-02-2012 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:54 AM   #42
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

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Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
Very, very true, and that's one of the two reasons I'm re-making Chandley's dwarf killing machine; to make certain I understand everything about him myself. But, Chandley's right; really the only thing I saw that was complicated was the multi-weapon axe.
Note that the multi-weapon axe was to milk single weapon Weapon Master for all its worth. The mace and pick wont benefit from Weapon Master bonuses unless you go up to the 35 point "All Axe/Mace weapons" version.

You still want weapon master and axe though, as a nice solid default. Mace is for things that have radically different DR vs crushing, and the pick is for targeting eyes and chinks in armor too tough for even your WM boosted cutting attack.
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Old 04-02-2012, 03:29 PM   #43
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

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Originally Posted by Kuroshima View Post
Will you share? Or better, will you try to get it past SJG and get it published as a DF adventure?
Those two things are mutually exclusive, I understand. I swear to the Old Gods, I will send it in to SJG. It's already massive, not counting all the extra BS that is needed such as monster stat blocks. It's not in the WYSIWYG format as I use Open Office, so I'm hoping someone will help me out with that. The dungeon is just part of the adventure.

The pre-gens made here won't be used in what I send SJG. This thread is just to help me understand how to make good PCs, aspects like Pickaxe Penchant.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

The players have chosen their templates and races. My friend is playing the half-ogre barbarian, one wanted to play a "dwarf warrior," and his wife said the "elf archer" sounded great. The fourth player works at the RPG shop and said he would take whatever was needed, so I went with human cleric.

Oh, and we can't play at the RPG store on Easter Sunday since it's closed (duh), so the game is getting moved back. Thanks, Jesus. Literally. :)
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:25 AM   #44
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

Updated post #2 with Dwarf Knight. Take a look, please and thanks.

Updated post #2 with Female Wood Elf Scout. Take a look, please and thanks.


I finally read Swashbuckler, and I see why he's one of the two big damage dealers. The Barbarian may not be able to keep up in this one-shot dungeon. It would be of great use in the surrounding adventure, but that 40 points in Outdoorsman is a total waste for this.

Maybe I'll make a Swashbuckler but call him a Barbarian; it's not like the player will know...

EDIT: No, what I think I'll do is cut Outdoorsman in half so that he can be a Barbarian-Swashbuckler, a lens that costs 50 points and the standard Barbarian template only has 30 to spare. So, he'll have a +2 to all the outdoorsy skills instead of +4. Furthermore, I'll probably not force the +1 DX the Swashbuckler lens adds and use that 20 points to buy half-ogre. Sure, it's going farther ascue than I wanted to do, but the player is interested in playing a half-ogre barbarian, and this character will make him happy. Hey, I'm the GM, anyways! XD

EDIT x2: That's an overly-complicated way just to add Weapon Master and half-ogre. I'll simply swap 20 of the 40 points of Outdoorsman for Weapon Master. Period. I'll add the half-ogre template as usual. Well, if the GM says it's okay, I will. I said it's okay! Yay! XD

Question: Half-ogre's ST +4 costs 40 points. But, the Barbarian has -10% modifier to ST. Does this make the half-ogre template cost less? What's the SJG style here?


Posting my progress on Barbarian. Imma go to sleep now... -_- zzZZ

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Old 04-03-2012, 04:10 AM   #45
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

Any race with a ST bonus that is also SM+1 or more gets the size discount on the racial ST.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:13 AM   #46
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

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If someone would be so kind as to run these numbers through their character-making program, I would appreciate it!

Updated: Female Wood Elf Scout!


Dwarf Knight
250 points

ST 15 [50]; DX 14 [80]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 14 [30]*.
Damage 1d+1/2d+1; BL 58 lbs.; HP 15 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 10 [0]; FP 17 [0]*.
Basic Speed 6.00 [-15]; Basic Move 5 [0]*; Dodge 9†; Parry (Axe) ?†; Block 12†.

Advantages
Born War-Leader 2 [10]; Combat Reflexes [15]; Dwarf [20]; High Pain Threshold [10]; Pickaxe Penchant 3 [15]; Weapon Master (Axe) [20].

Disadvantages
(TBD) [-35]; Quirks [-5].

Skills
Armoury (Melee Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11; Axe/Mace (A) DX+2 [8]-20§; Brawling (E) DX+1 [2]-15; Carousing (E) HT [1]-14; Climbing (A) DX-1 [1]-13; Connoisseur (Weapons) (A) IQ+1 [4]-11; Fast-Draw (Axe) (E) DX+1 [1]-15†; Flail (H) DX+1 [8]-15; Intimidation (A) Will-1 [1]-9; Knife (E) DX [1]-14; Leadership (A) IQ+1 [1]-11‡; Shield (E) DX+2 [4]-16; Stealth (A) DX-1 [1]-13; Strategy (H) IQ+1 [2]-11‡; Tactics (H) IQ+1 [2]-11‡; Thrown Weapon (Axe/Mace) (E) DX+2 [4]-20§; Two-Handed Axe/Mace (A) DX+2 [8]-20§; Wrestling (A) DX [2]-14.

* Included in or modified by dwarf racial template.
† Includes +1 for Combat Reflexes.
‡ Includes +2 for Born War-Leader.
§ Includes +4 for Pickaxe Penchant.
Note: I swapped one of the Knight's three weapon choices for two-handed axe/mace, justified by Pickaxe Penchant stating all dwarfs are natural at fighting with them.

Equipment
(TBD)
Why include Flail at all? It doesnt benefit from Weapon Master, and its 8 points you could spend on one of your two Axe/Mace skills. If you need crushing damage, either use the flat of your axe or carry a mace. Flails are for specialists IN Flail. The big advantage of a Flail is its hard to defend against, but adding to Axe/Mace skill lets you use Deceptive attack for much the same effect, as the 4 levels of Pickaxe Penchant and 2 levels of skill that 8 points buys you can be used for -6 worth of defensive attack, and thus -3 to defend (compared to a Flails -2 vs block and -4 vs parry, but no penalty to dodge).

Also remember that Weapon Master, amongst its many benefits, includes a better default. In this case, if you took the 8 points in 2handed axe mace, dumped them into 1handed, and used the WM default for an Average skill (Skill -2), you will be at the same effective level for 2handed axe/mace as you are right now, but better off in 1handed.

All of that is basically the long way of saying there is a reason a dwarf Knight picks option 1 for his weapon skills. Option 3 is for if you sink more points into Weapon Master (for example, Knightly Weapons [30]).

Finally, you'll note that my template "pays" for some of Dwarf by keeping HT at 13. This is because the character you have here has spent all his points, including quirks, and so only has $2k for equipment, which is a little tight for a knight. You CAN do it, all mail armor, a fine, balanced Dwarven axe will leave you $325 for throwing axes, food, etc... but DR 5/3* most everywhere is a little light. 6/4* if you dump $50 into Fortify +1. Not a deal breaker, just something to think about.

EDIT: Oh, and like with the Elf Scout, your Basic Speed cost is wrong. You would get back 20 points (-20) for dropping Basic Speed from 7 to 6. Sadly, that just means 5 less points in OTHER disads (TBD 30 points and 5 points of Quirks). Doesnt actually save you any points to spend on gear.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:25 AM   #47
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

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Female Wood Elf Scout
250 points

ST 12 [30]*; DX 15 [80]*; IQ 11 [20]; HT 12 [20].
Damage 1d-2/1d+2; BL 29 lbs.; HP 12 [0]; Will 11 [0]; Per 14 [15]; FP 12 [0].
Basic Speed 7.00 [10]; Basic Move 8 [0]*; Dodge 11; Parry (Broadsword) 11; Block N/A.

Advantages
Wood Elf [20]; Heroic Archer [20]; Outdoorsman 2 [20]; Strongbow [1].

Disadvantages
(TBD) [-50]; Quirks [-5].

Skills
Acrobatics (H) DX [4]-15; Bow (A) DX+6 [16]-21‡; Broadsword (A) DX+3 [12]-18; Camouflage (E) IQ+6 [2]-17†‡; Cartography (A) IQ+1 [4]-12; Climbing (A) DX+1 [4]-16; Fast-Draw (Arrow) (E) DX+2 [1]-17‡; Gesture (E) IQ+1 [2]-12; Hiking (A) HT [2]-12; Jumping (E) DX [1]-15; Knife (E) DX [1]-15; Mimicry (Bird Calls) (H) IQ+1 [2]-12†; Navigation (Land) (A) IQ+1 [1]-12†; Observation (A) Per [2]-14; Riding (Horse) (A) DX-1 [1]-14; Search (A) Per-1 [1]-13; Shadowing (A) IQ+1 [4]-12; Stealth (A) DX+1 [1]-16‡; Survival (Woodlands) (A) Per+3 [1]-17†‡; Swimming (E) HT [1]-12; Tracking (A) Per+2 [2]-16†; Traps (A) IQ+1 [4]-12.

* Included in or modified by wood elf racial template.
† Includes +2 for Outdoorsman.
‡ Includes +2 for Forest Guardian.

Equipment
(TBD)
Note that the cost for Basic Speed is wrong, you only need to spend 5 points to bring it up to 7.00 (DX 15 + HT 12 /4 = 6.75). Alternately, drop DX by 1 point to pick up Weapon Master (Bow) for +2 damage per die. Id be tempted to drop ST by another point for +2 Forest Gaurdian (same bow damage as you have now) or keep DX the same and drop Basic Move back to 7 (effectively not buying the +1 Move from the Elf template) to get 5 more points to let you boost ST by 1, for +1 damage.

If you dont do any of that, the 5 points your off by will at least help you buy an Elven Longbow... those things are pricey! Still, WM(Bow) is more damage than $3400 worth of Elven Longbow.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:58 AM   #48
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

In the early adventures, I've rarely seen situations where the Scout goes, "what I need here is a point or two more damage." Spending a perk for Strongbow is good, but Weapon Master (Bow) or Elven Bows are generally overkill. The most common attack in my experience is a bodkin point arrow to the vitals, and just about everything that is vulnerable to a Scout's attacks at all is vulnerable to that attack even at 1d+3 damage.*

I'd spend any free points on either increasing Woodland Guardian or making sure the scout had plenty of Cornucopia quivers (bodkin, impaling, and willowleaf if possible) and some fine, balanced, silver-coated arrows for those situations when extra damage and accuracy IS important. Getting an elven bow at the very start is really unnecessary.

* This presumes the Scout isn't going to do much in the fight against the Stone Golems. But even a Scout using an Elven Bow and Weapon Master for another +3 damage isn't going to do much in that fight.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:41 AM   #49
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

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In the early adventures, I've rarely seen situations where the Scout goes, "what I need here is a point or two more damage." Spending a perk for Strongbow is good, but Weapon Master (Bow) or Elven Bows are generally overkill. The most common attack in my experience is a bodkin point arrow to the vitals, and just about everything that is vulnerable to a Scout's attacks at all is vulnerable to that attack even at 1d+3 damage.*
+2 damage, and +2 to hit when using Heroic Archer/Fast Draw to shoot every round. +2 to hit isnt something to be sneered at given range penalties. Its another level of Deceptive Attack if nothing else (if using that from Martial Arts). Or lets you go for the eyes instead of the vitals, which since your Eff skill is going to slide below 15/16 in that case, +2 to hit makes a BIG difference.

Use the 10 points from dropping Strength to buy Weapon Master (Ranger Weapons) [30], and now your melee attacks are not to be sneered at either... Actually, that gives me an idea.

I agree on the Elven Bow actually. Not needed to start with.
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Old 04-03-2012, 09:47 AM   #50
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Default Re: [DF 1-3] Critique Five Pre-Gen Mass-Murdering Burglar Hobos

As a relevant aside, when Mark and Bruno discuss the best ways to do damage with these archetypes, theys isn't makin' stuff up. Bruno's current character in DF is so good with double-shooting bodkin arrows that in two different (low-power, true) encounters, it was all basically over but the bleeding by the time the foot-based fighters got within spitting distance.
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