Failed attack rolls

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by tbone

No unready weapon, no falling down from a kick, no loosed projectile, etc.

This in particular is the crux of it for me. If a miss is a hesitation, you don't fire. Your arrows aren't depleted, the bad guys don't hear the gunfire, and there's no chance of hitting someone by accident.

This conversation has let loose more than a few thoughts on my part; going to my blog to expound.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by JazzJedi

But you give them a baseball bat, assuming they don't train to fight with a bat (skill at default), and suddenly they lose their ability to judge distance and openings?

Personally coming from a martial arts background IRL, I can definitely confirm your point! I've been thinking about introducing a stat for "generic" melee fighting experience for a long time to better solve that issue. (Apart from just skill defaults). Something like a fighting talent, that would give you a bonus to the melee usage of the bat (in that case), even though you are primarily trained with other fighting skills.

Moreover I would ideally restrict raising that talent in a relation to the number of different fighting skills and the overall cp count in all that skills, as a measure of width and depth of your fighting capabilities (your overview about different weapon distances and styles along with your related training in the action).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

This in particular is the crux of it for me. If a miss is a hesitation, you don't fire. Your arrows aren't depleted, the bad guys don't hear the gunfire, and there's no chance of hitting someone by accident.

This conversation has let loose more than a few thoughts on my part; going to my blog to expound.

One thought I had was if you do have an attack roll missing by a certain amount being a hesitation or cancelled hit rather than swing and miss, and you used 'Last Gasp' I'd say no AP is spent on an attack that isn't actually made. And if I did this I might say missed defensive attacks are more likely to be a hesitation or not actually made than missed normal or committed attacks*. (following T-bone's idea in the other direction)

That to me would help model conservative, energy saving defensive fighting. It would also reduce the chance of triggering a wait that was waiting for you to attack, if you don't actually attack then the wait doesn't trigger.



*e.g a Normal attack might count as a "not made attack" at 1 Mof, a defensive attack might count as that at 1 or 2 Mof

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by tbone

My objection* to "a miss means you didn't act" is that it is inconsistent with some game effects.

Agreed, partially. I would definitely tend to a more soft interpretation, saying it could well be that you did not really act, maybe hesitating, backing off or something like that, if that makes sense in the whole given situation (GM decision). That gives the GM more room for realistic explanations in retrospective while still making sure that the rules and the outcome are consistent in all cases. Taking care of exceptions like the ones you mentioned...

Though it may well be, that the "exception" is very often the "normal case" depending on the situation: For instance in a fight with many unbalanced weapons there won't be much room for the "did nothing" interpretation I guess... I would also rule that "failed to hit" should actively balance out these weapons, and this needed an action, as this is a fact by the rules, not just interpretation IMHO...

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Personally coming from a martial arts background IRL, I can definitely confirm your point! I've been thinking about introducing a stat for "generic" melee fighting experience for a long time to better solve that issue. (Apart from just skill defaults). Something like a fighting talent, that would give you a bonus to the melee usage of the bat (in that case), even though you are primarily trained with other fighting skills.

How about a Perk- "Combat-trained" or "Combat-accustomed"? It gives you Dabbler perk-style defaults on a set of combat skills.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

How about a Perk- "Combat-trained" or "Combat-accustomed"? It gives you Dabbler perk-style defaults on a set of combat skills.

Well, a perk is maybe too easy to get and would probably be a bit limited...

I was more looking at example situations like that:
A veteran sword fighter with DX 13 and Sword 15 (plus axe, plus dagger, plus unarmed experiences...) getting his hands on a spear for instance, but not having the spear or staff skill to make the point here.
On the opponent side we have a young soldier having his first real fights, also having DX 13 and maybe just Sword 13 and a little bit unarmed, not more. He also has to take his chances with a spear.


Which guy would you bet your money on? In GURPS? IRL?

My point is that this kind of fighting experience (new soldier vs the veteran), not directly related to a specific weapon skill, is currently not really covered by the rules AFAIK...

Also it would add to the chances of veterans anyway, making "useless" side weapon skills more valuable as a generic experience.


On the one hand weapons like a spear and a sword are obviously very different, I like the defaulting mechanics as they are and personally I would not change anything here. On the other hand, from my IRL experience, I would definitely say that "broad" martial arts training lets you learn a few general lessons like seeing openings, a better feeling for distances, psychological things etc.

For these latter aspects I would like to have something like a melee fighting talent.

And like I said above, I would ideally restrict raising a fighting talent like that, in a relation to the number of different fighting skills and the overall cp count in all that skills (to represent broad and deep experience).

Something like that, I don't know yet which cp prices would be fair etc., just as an example for my vision:

Melee Fighting Talent [5/lvl]
Gives +1 to all melee fighting skills per level.
Restrictions: Level 1 requires you to have spent at least 8 CP in at least two different melee fighting skills. Level 2 requires you to have spent at least 16 CP in at least four different melee fighting skills. Level 3 requires you to have spent at least 24 CP in at least six different melee fighting skills.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Melee Fighting Talent [5/lvl]
Gives +1 to all melee fighting skills per level.
Restrictions: Level 1 requires you to have spent at least 8 CP in at least two different melee fighting skills. Level 2 requires you to have spent at least 16 CP in at least four different melee fighting skills. Level 3 requires you to have spent at least 24 CP in at least six different melee fighting skills.

My only request here is to separate this (useful) thread from the bits on "what does a failed attack mean?" as they're related but different issues, both worthy of focus.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

My only request here is to separate this (useful) thread from the bits on "what does a failed attack mean?" as they're related but different issues, both worthy of focus.

Done... ;) See http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?p=2220461

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The problem with "swing and miss" is that it's hard to do.*

Umm... actually it's really easy. Having LARPed (Boffer and SCA grand melees) I've seen so many wiffs it's not funny. 99% of them are "the opponent took a step away and the attacker didn't expect it". Not a Dodge in GURPS terms, but a miss.

Like Tomsdad recons, GURPS is an approximation, the foe isn't standing still while being swung at, they might be mid-step, mid run, leaning away to get a hit in themselves, etc.

[*]Attack, miss: Simply didn't act, for want of initiative or an opening.

I just want to toss my voice on this as well: So then what happens to missile weapons, kicks, Parry U, †ST, and ‡ST weapons? Is the arrow unloosed, the gun unshot, the kick never launched, and the mace, polearm, and great axe still Ready?

* One of the most common criticisms of GURPS is in the vein of, "Gee, how can an ordinary person swing a baseball bat at someone's head and miss?

Is that really a common criticism? Not calling you out here... just really? That's very weird to me, having been in street fights with baseball bats and having seen people miss swings to the torso.

Originally Posted by JazzJedi

This seems problematic for a variety of reasons. The ability to capitalize on openings seems a separate skill than hitting - a skilled Mixed Martial Artist with Boxing-15, Karate-15, Judo-15, Wrestling-15 would be very good at timing openings against an average (say skill 10 or 11) opponent. But you give them a baseball bat, assuming they don't train to fight with a bat (skill at default), and suddenly they lose their ability to judge distance and openings?

Actually, yes. The bat doesn't have the balance of a fist, it's weight and heft isn't familiar, etc.

I've seen experienced martial artists hesitate (they start the swing, but immediately draw back to 'ready') with weapons they were unfamiliar with in a match because they weren't confident of the hit. And by this I mean they did a lot more hesitating than they would with a weapon they were familiar with. Even if it was just a lengthening or shortening of a weapon they did know.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The problem with "swing and miss" is that it's hard to do.*

It's really only hard to do against an immobile target. The problem is that GURPS puts all of evasive movement into the Dodge score instead of making it generically hard to hit moving targets.