Sea Ogre

[JAW]

Uhmyeah how about submergible ogres or cybersubs or whatewer.
A regular cybership might hawe the ability to go submerged with sharply reduced mowe - I mean why not If it doesnt hawe crew and is powered by nuclear power (thus nort really needing to take in air for engines) adding capability to go submerged would not cost that much..

btw - ewen a regular sub should mowe a bit faster when surfaced.

An cyber-GEW wich can also go submerged would be just wacky ;)
those things might hawe been build by combine just before the war broke out or maybe by Nihon or pacific alliance or whatewer.. These might not be good for direct confrontations but they would be monstrous for ambushing conwoys or raiding weakly defended shores... Those would really be what I would call "krakens".. How about post war kraken hunt scenario - these could stay hidden and continue wreaking hawoc for years after the war..

[piningforthefjords]

Originally Posted by Bowser

Tristan, I'd especially like your thoughts on this picture.

Good lord! That would have to be one awfully big sub... A Mark III is like 20 meters long, yes?

Ogres vs subs underwater - oops bet no one's thought of that! Really the issue is submerged Ogres vs any water craft, sub or not. The only weapon I recollect that Ogres can use underwater is missiles at half stength during overruns only.

Should this be changed to missiles half stength and half range?

OR - WACKY IDEA - coastal defense Ogres. An Ogre especially designed to work on land and in coastal waters, generally within 10 km of the shore. The missle racks are loaded with torpedoes (same stats as a missile, or is that too generous?). I could see a Mark V with 6 torpedos being a real menace on Corbeau's Kraken maps. Of course it could stay on land and fire missiles instead, but what about those trips between islands?

I told you it was wacky!

[Bowser]

Random thoughts keep occuring to me about "Sea Ogre" . . .

In most of the "ideas" presented below, I'm envisioning a full-blown, somewhat strategic, large battle. Could involve big surface ships, different kinds of subs, bottom prowling Ogres, and squads of Marines.

1. Since Superheavy Tanks treat terrain "as do Ogres", does this mean that SHVYs can prowl the ocean bottoms as do Ogres?

2. What is the depth limit (if any) for Marine battlesuits? How long can they be deployed in open ocean without any support craft?

3. What new terrain hex-types will be needed (if any). Perhaps some underwater "rough" and "mountain" terrain, maybe some "ooze" (i.e. underwater swamps for Ogres), and several shades of blue to indicate several ranges of depth???

4. I like the idea of "Shore Patrol" Ogres using specialized missiles = torpedoes and launching racks. These need to be defined.

5. These same modified Ogres should have some type of smaller torpedoes to use against smaller surface craft (i.e. GEVs) and Marines. Maybe something to take the place of the Secondaries?

6. In my previous post, I linked to a picture of a sub hauling an Ogre. If an Ogre doesn't crawl by itself over the ocean floor to its destination, it seems to me that the only other "safe" way it to ride the back of a nice quiet sub. It should be faster, and if it surfaces, the Ogre's weapons could be used. I'd like for some of this strategic planning to be thought out. Something like: How long would it take to move 8 Mk Vs from the Seattle area to just off the coast of the capital of Nihon?

7. How cool would it be to have several adapted Vulcans construct an underwater base/CP?

There's probably more, but they don't occur to me just now. But I'd sure like some feedback here.

Thanks,
Doug Pearson

[piningforthefjords]

Just cruising thru the archives, looking for the answer to my rules question I posted, and I came across this.

FYI....

From: Kerry Harrison <kerry@illuminati.io.com>
Subject: OGRE Naval Rules (1st Draft)
To: Henry Cobb <hcobb@fly2.berkeley.edu>

This is a very rough 1st draft of some OGRE naval combat rules, several
changes have alrady be proposed and will be implemented in the next draft
(mainly concerning getting the Ogre back into the game and instead of a
big ship game concentraiting on GEVs, WIGs, and other small vessels to
keep unit size in parity with the rest of OGRE Miniatures), I'm posting
it to the list for futher comments. - Kerry


===
SHIPS

Ships Size 10 or larger are treated similar to Ogres (closer to Chinese
Landship actually) in that each weapon system is targeted and destroyed
separately but are affected by D results in combat.

Ship hulls are targeted like Ogre thread units, with each attack being at 1
to 1 odds. The damage done to the hull integrity is equal to the strength of
the attacking weapon and reduces the ship's speed. This reflects both the
damage to the ship's hull and drive systems and the drag and intake of water.
Once all of its hull integrity is lost, the ship immediately sinks. A sunken
ship is incapable of further action.

All ships with a movement type of SEA (RIV vessels are considered to be
flatbottom or no draft to speak of) have either a shallow or deep draft.
Ships with a shallow draft cannot approach closer than 1" to any land, stream
or swamp. Ships with a deep draft cannot approach closer than 2" to any
land, stream or swamp.


NAVAL WEAPONS

Naval Guns are railguns that fire smart missiles similar to the Howitzer or
Missile Tank. They can attack underwater targets at half strength.

Light Naval Gun - Attack: 4, Range: 10", Defense: 2
Medium Naval Gun - Attack: 4, Range: 12", Defense: 2
Heavy Naval Gun - Attack: 6, Range: 14", Defense: 3
Superheavy Naval Gun - Attack: 6, Range: 16", Defense: 4

Torpedoes are underwater missiles, they can only be used against targets in
water terrain, they can only attack the hulls on ships. When used against
ships they attack at 2 to 1 odds and have a 1 in 6 chance of doing double
damage on a XX result. On ships they are usually mounted externally, but may
be launched via tubes, subs always launch them via tubes. They attack
underwater targets at full strength and GEVs at half strength.

Torpedo - Attack: 6, Range: 8", Defense: 3
Torpedo Tube - Attack: n/a, Range: n/a, Defense: 4

Depth Charges are underwater bombs dropped by either GEVs or ships when they
pass over a submerged unit during movement. This attack is immediately
resolved. To determine the strength of the attack, roll a die. The sesult
is the attack strength of the depth charge, representing how far from the
target the depth charge detonated- the lower the number the farther away. If
attacking an Ogre, the firing player may chose the system to be attacked,
depth charges can only attack a submarine's hull, but do so at it's rolled
attack value to 1 not at 1 to 1 odds, they do their attack value in damage.
Depth charge attacks may not be combined with any other attacks, if a ship
drops multiple charges each one is resolve seperately. Depth Charges
launchers allow the launching of 1 depth charge per launcher from a central
magazine.

Depth Charge - Attack: *, Range: *, Defense: 1 (* see above)
Depth Charge Launcher - Attack: n/a, Range: n/a, Defense: 3

Naval Missiles are naval version of the Ogre Missile, smaller warhead but
longer range. Missiles are either mounted externally on ships, launched via
missile launcher or vertical launch system (VLS). They can attack underwater
targets at half strength. A Missile Launcher is the naval version of an Ogre
Missile Rack. A Missile VLS system allows the launching of all missiles in
it's magazine at once. Submarines may only use VLS systems.

Naval Missile - Attack: 4, Range: 20", Defense: 2
Missile Launcher - Attack: n/a, Range: n/a, Defense: 4
Missile Vertical Launch System - Attack: n/a, Ranger: n/a, Defense: 4

Cruise Missiles - as per normal rules. Externally mounted cruise missiles
have a defense of 2, cruise missiles mounted in internal bays have a defense
of 4.

AP Batteries - same as Ogre AP.
Antipersonnel Battery - Attack: 1, Range: 2", Defense: 1

Possible Others
Laser Turret
Laser Tower
Jamscreen
Radar
Anti-Cruise Missile System
Anti-Satellite (ASAT) Missile
Fire and Forget Satelites

OTHER NAVAL UNITS (treated similar to standard armor units)

Marines
GEVs (maybe a few newer models designed for naval warfare
River Patrol Boats
Coastal Defense Boats


TERRAIN


Water - no major changes. Except to add the possibility (option) or storms.


Movement Modes and Terrain Effects

RIV - River
This classification is for all waterborne vehicles of size 9 or small. These
units travel normally across water, but are prohibited from entering any
other type of terrain (except streams). These units have a limited ability
to move through streams. Units size 3 or smaller move normally. Units size
4 or greater have their movement halved, and each unit most roll a die
immediately upon entering the stream, and again at the beginning of each turn
the unit remains in the stream. On a 1 or 2 it is immediately and
permanently stuck. If their is Ice terrain above the water, units size 7 and
larger may act as icebreakers, and clear a pathway through the ice at half
their movement rate. If a bridge crosses a river, the particular scenarios
will dicatate whether or not a seagoing vessel may pass underneath it.

SEA - Seagoing
This classification is for all waterborne vehicles of size 10 or greater.
These units travel normally across water but are prohibited from entering any
other type of terrain. All vessels with this movement mode have either a
shallow or deep draft. Ships with a shallow draft cannot approach closer
than 1" to any land, stream or swamp, unless the scenario indicates otherwise
(ie piers, drydocks etc). Ships with a deep draft cannot approach closer
than 2" to any land, stream or swamp, unless the scenario indicates
otherwise. If there is Ice terrain above the water these units may act as
icebreakers and clear a pathway through the ice at half their movement rate.
If a bridge crosses a river, the particular scenarios will dicatate whether
or not a seagoing vessel may pass underneath it.

SUB - Submersible
Submersibles may travel either on the surface or underwater. They are
prohibited from entering any other terrain. Once, any tiem during movement,
a submersible may declare that it is either diving or surfacing. It will
then spend the rest of the turn above or below the water as appropriate.
There is no penalty for these units moving underwater. If the sub starts its
turn on the surface, and spends its ntire movement on the surface, it
receives a 2" movement penalty. When surfaced these units are treated as
either RIV or SEA depending on size (note unless they are designed for
special purposes like the LST, subs almost always are SEA with deep drafts).
These units may not enter Streams submerged. They can travel under Ice
terrain, and may surface and break through the Ice if the unit's size is
greater than or equal to the strength of the Ice.


Storms
If the battle is occurring on water terrain, there is a 1 in 6 chance of a
storm brewing. If this occurs roll another die - on 1-5 it's a minor storm,
on a 6 it's a severe storm.

A minor storm causes a GEV to lose 1" of movement in each of it's phases and
a 1 in 6 chance of becoming disabled (this roll is made each turn, 3 disabled
results in a row results in the GEV being swamped and sunk). All ships lose
1" of movement. Submarines are treated as ships if surfaced, otherwise no
effect.

A major storm causes a GEV to lose 2" of movement in each of it's phases and
2 in 6 chance of becoming disabled (this roll is made each turn, 2 disabled
results in a row results in the GEV being swamped and sunk). All ships lose
2" of movement, any ship smaller then size 15 has a 1 in 6 chance of being
disabled (all weapons), 3 disabled results in a row result in the ship being
swamped and sinking. Submarines are treated as ships if surfaced, otherwise
no effect.
___

[The reason that Ogres can't target units above water is that they
have no targeting info on them, right?

The game will need hidden movement, if the smallest destroyer can
totally immobilize an Ogre with it's trusty 5" gun. (How do those
hypersonic shells survive the air-to-water transition anyway?) -HJC]

[dylango]

I must say I like these ideas for the most part, they fit with my feelings on how a naval evironment should feel . I'd hasten to add that this is mearly an asthetic statement, these rules are not better than Corbeau's ideas, or worse, they just feel... er... right to me I suppose. I like the way large naval vessels are treated as such, that is to say like OGREs with hit locations (though I do understand Corb's arguments for smaller ships). I REALLY like the depth charge rules. As for the question of how could a missile enter the water without destructing; well again the bassis of the technology exists today qua Russia's supercavitating torpedo/missile. It has an estimated speed underwater of over 200 knots! I realise that's a far cry from supersonic, however given that the OGRE battlescape is over 60 years in the future, I don't think the technological advancements the difference in speed would require is all that hard to swallow. (shrugs). I agree that these or any rules for submerged vehicles would require hidden movement; I still submit that some sort of rules abstraction would adress this without bogging down an OGRE game in any more paperwork than OGRE (and ship now I suppose) record sheets.

The storm rules... mmm well perhaps good for scenario specific rules, but I'm sort of with those that like OGRE for its light rules content, I mean if we cared for something more robust I'd wager this would be a Squad Leader discussion forum (evil grin).

At any rate, I'm really looking forward to hearing from Corbeau on all of this, after all this is his baby and whatever he settles on I'm really looking forward to playtesting!

-Dylan

[Corbeau]

I've seen those rules before, a long time ago. Mostly, the rules discribe a good guideline for Krakens (or whatever we're calling 'em). There are two significant fluff differences between Cobb's rules and mine:

1) To me, any sizable ship is going to be run by an AI. I just can't believe that anyone would build a ship that expensive and not make it an Ogre (possible exception for factions without that technology - a similar case being the landships that Cobb mentioned).

2) Even if most of your fighting fleet is going to be Cyberships, you'll still need patrol craft. That's where my "Frigates" come in - they're capable of fighting, just not on the level as a Cybership. Frigates are also a lot cheaper, however, and having underpowered ships in an area is better than having none at all.

Going back further, I like the idea about retrofitting Ogres for sea combat. I don't see any pressing need to change stats when doing so, but note that any weapon redone to fire underwater torpedoes will be useless on land. Also note that torpedo weapons cannot fire through land hexes either. Route around if they have the range, sure (ain't AI wonderful?), but they can't go through or into land hexes.

And yes, that probably means that you can put torpedo weapons on Cyberships as well. After all, it's good to be able to shoot back if you run into a naval defense Ogre.

[piningforthefjords]

Can a passive sub avoid overrun combat? Would it be cool to have a unit that could move thru other enemy units, and attack the units behind?

A mechanism would have to be created so there would be a chance of the sub being detected. What that is, I don't know.

Perhaps the sub has a good chance of getting thru the hex undetected, but if detected treat the sub as active - that is, D results = X.

Also, once a sub is active, is it ever passive again? Active subs won't last long...

[Corbeau]

I hadn't planned to let a Sub avoid overrun combat, but I think that it's an idea worth trying so long as the Sub is passive. Maybe let the defender roll 1D6, and if the result is higher than the number of defending units in the hex then the Sub slips past (if the result is lower, then the Sub must both become active -the defender spotted it- and enter overrun combat).

As for becoming passive, all that an active Sub has to do is spend one full turn without making an attack of any kind.

[piningforthefjords]

I like it! Nice job on the number of units in the hex idea. I was thinking a 1 or 2 on a D6, but this is better.

I think the idea of avoiding overruns is worth a try. If it sucks when we are playtesting it, then it can be killed off.

[piningforthefjords]

Well, we're ready to playtest. The Kraken page is up at http://www.sirdinglydang.com/kraken.htm

We need scenarios! Any ideas out there? Even if you want to design your own map, go for it and let the board know.

We need playtesters! If you are interested post now.

I think we also need a transport unit of some kind (as mentioned before).