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Old 10-10-2020, 01:54 PM   #1
WhiteLily
 
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Default All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

I don't like the Holy Warriors +2 IQ in template. I really feel those 40 points are poorly spent.

I say, let them be dumb as a box of hammers. They're not casting spells. Holiness is buffing the skills that matter. His vagueness of the true nature of God and the universe should be made up for by pure vigor, passion, and brute force.

Fortunately, the Half Ogre template swaps out 1 of the 2 IQ points for an increased combat capability.
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

Depends on if you think they actually need to succeed at hidden lore/theology/exorcism/psychology/physiology/religious ritual/esoteric medicine or not. Or if you ever need to succeed at a contingency casting spell. If you don't care about that stuff, why aren't you playing a knight?

When your holy warrior makes the roll that saves you from having to kill a Demon of Old the slow way, or makes killing a Peshkali possible at all, you start to see the value in that IQ. The trouble with holy warriors, martial artists, bards, thieves and even clerics is simple: broad competence feels bad when you are competing with specialists. It's a long road of advancement before any of those feel amazing compared to their more focused competitors: Knight, Barbarian, Scout, Wizard, Swashbuckler. (I'm leaving druid out on purpose, druids have their own issues that are off topic for this thread). Those generalist professions are a slower burn, but can be really cool as they advance. Holy Warrior in particular I think shines at about 300 to 350 points and they can far more frequently say "I have the exact power for this emergency".
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Old 10-10-2020, 07:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

I think it's the other way around: Holy Warrior is a trap template and every HW should be a Cleric. They just lose so much being restricted from actual spellcasting and discounted scrolls and gain so little in exchange, they just have slightly better starting combat attributes, but medium term the cleric just steamrolls the HW on every front. They can be a half-ogre Clerics just fine.

I think Cleric should probably have a lower baseline IQ and PI and more discretionary points, allowing the player to build in either direction; there is no need for two templates here outside of "it exists as a separate class in D&D".
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

Basically all templates that try to do IQ along with something else are trap options. It's a general problem with GURPS; flat attribute costs means someone who tries to do both DX and IQ is bad at both.
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:32 PM   #5
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Basically all templates that try to do IQ along with something else are trap options. It's a general problem with GURPS; flat attribute costs means someone who tries to do both DX and IQ is bad at both.
Hence why ditching IQ and focusing on Strength and Dex seems like a way out of the trap.

I think of the HW as a Knight with a specialty focus.
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Old 10-15-2020, 12:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

I personally hate many of the common stereotypes given to certain classes, whether D&D or any other system.

Where, while you could chose to have you Holy Warrior dumb as a box of hammers, naïve or dim, fine. Yet I don't like playing stupid characters, and whenever I've played Paladins I was often frustrated with the lack of skill access and would always at least give the character a 10 in Intelligence and Wisdom... When playing GURPS or Dungeon Fantasy, I'd have IQ be at least average as well. Even go for the character being a bit more aware or strategic minded.

Last edited by GreyScholar; 10-15-2020 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 10-15-2020, 02:12 PM   #7
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

I agree, there is no real reason why mystical abilities have to be part of IQ. I think this also goes for Wizards and clerics. I give a base 10 for starting spell casters and then add Magery or Power Investiture. IQ does not add to their spell casting abilities. That way a wizard or cleric will not out shine the Scholar. There is no reason that a person with mystical abilities to channel Divine energy or magical energy should also know about mechanics or other science abilities. I almost think that they are opposite abilities. A cleric will use his Power Investiture to comprehend the Divine to solve a problem while a scholar will try to draw his conclusions supposing the world is not supernatural but logical.
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Old 10-15-2020, 02:46 PM   #8
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

Dumb as a box of hammers was a bit of hyperbole on my part. I was just thinking of an IQ around 10, or normal human intellect.

The typical D&D Paladin has
High Strength, Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma
Mediocre: Intelligence and Dexterity

This has created a trope of clumsy, dumb Paladins who are wise, strong willed (keys off of Wisdom), perceptive (same), and great looking.

That doesn't really translate to GURPS as well because attractiveness and willpower key off of intellect. So you end up spending points for Attractiveness/Natural Born Leader and Willpower. In addition, you end up spending points in skills you think the Holy Warrior should have.

So there's not a huge savings in discounting IQ. Still, I think 12 too high for a charismatic, swordsman who knows the way of God.
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Old 10-15-2020, 02:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyScholar View Post
I personally hate many of the common stereotypes given to certain classes, whether D&D or any other system.
The problem is that the rules favor building your fighters dumb as a bag of rocks, because the marginal utility of IQ is fairly low for them.
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Old 10-15-2020, 03:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: All Holy Warriors should be Half-Ogre

I also wanted to reply to the notion that the Holy Warrior is a trap.

The argument is that it is most efficient to key things off of as few key stats as possible into which you pour your character points.

Therefore, the logic seems to go, the party with a Knight and a Wizard will "outperform" others that require good scores in other, "cross class" abilities.

I think the flaw in this logic is that a Knight who sticks to just bread and butter will have a huge vulnerability in Willpower. A Holy Warrior, with their focus on willpower and abilities that give them save versus the evil demons, should prove more reliable in situations of mental domination.
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