GURPS, 1986 Release Date?

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Yeah, so-called "edition compression": A new game comes out, nobody has ever heard about it, so it has poor penetration into smaller and more remote markets. Then it catches on so quickly that there's a new edition . . . and because the game is so popular, that one hits even the outlying markets very quickly. So what was in fact "Year X and Year X+2" feels more like "Year X+1.5 and Year+2" to those of us in obscure corners of the world. We had a lot of this in Halifax in the 1980s.

I think that as far as a lot of these products are concerned, Halifax is probably less remote than most of Europe.

The USA and often Canada, sometimes the UK are usually seen as a common market. Travel and such is also fairly easy. There are often chain stores that have a presence in a large part. And a lot of companies are based there. Also conventions, I've often noticed how big a role those play when discussing things with people from the other side of the pond. And conventions sometimes come with the opportunity to directly interact with the developers/creators, or otherwise with people who do.

Europe and the rest of the world is more fractured. Not only are there language and legal problems, but logistics and other things play a role as well. And often the English speaking businesses do not even bother to try an market their products, as they assume they need to do a translation for their product to sell. Which might or might not be true, depending on the product and the target demographic.

In other words, I would be surprised if GURPS made it to the Netherlands in any significant way before 1996. It took D&D until about the second half of the eighties to get any traction here. From before AD&D 2E, I only know people who played D&D because they knew someone from America.
I would be interested if anyone knew anything about the history of GURPS over here?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I think that as far as a lot of these products are concerned, Halifax is probably less remote than most of Europe.

That's a forgivable assumption but essentially wrong. Distances in North America are difficult for those in the Western European market to appreciate. Looking at this map, Halifax is on the northeastern shore of the Caspian, in Kazakhstan, and Austin is on the Mediterranean coast of Libya. The distance is the same as Lisbon-Kyiv to within a few tens of km. But there are much greater distances possible, and the area is huge. Shipping costs track these distances.

Canada in particular also has a very low population density: 3.6 people per square km, contrasted with 32.8 in the United States. (For fun, Portugal has 115, Ukraine has 75, Kazakhstan has 6.3 and Libya has 3.5. The Netherlands has 409.) This affects market viability. You can trace shipping routes through most of Northern and Western Europe that don't fall below 100 people per square km and mostly stay above 300; by contrast, you can't even find that kind of density in Canada outside of a few large cities. There is one corridor that might pull it off (Windsor-Québec), but that's it.

And Halifax is stuck out on an extremity of the continent which isn't on the way to or from anywhere. It is a "have-not" region by Canadian standards. And there aren't many people there . . . Amsterdam is 4.5 times as densely populated. Heck, Astana, Kazakhstan is more densely populated!

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

Travel and such is also fairly easy.

It is a quirk of the Canadian economy that it costs $854 for me to get a nonstop flight from where I am now (Montréal) to Amsterdam and $789 to get to Halifax. It's a bit crazy how that is. Road travel in Canada involves driving very long distances over winding roads that have to follow coastlines in the east and dodge serious geology in the west; it ranges between "unsafe" and "impossible" for a few months of the year. In their infinite (lack of) wisdom, our governments have been systematically removing support for rail since the 1980s.

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

There are often chain stores that have a presence in a large part.

These mostly stop at the Canadian border, outside of a few large cities. And in Canada, most don't carry hobby games.

Anyway, all of that is to say that even here, we have isolated regions where the market is too sparse, too remote, and too expensive to reach for niche hobby items to enjoy much penetration. My first exposure to the kind of gaming market discussed by U.S. residents on these forums happened after I moved to Montréal in 1990. And note that it wasn't quite the same because this is a French-speaking region and most hobby games aren't published in French. It has never been easy to find GURPS where I live owing to the fact that – a few brief experiments aside – the game isn't published in French. (The francophone region neatly separates the populous, wealthier, English-speaking central and western parts of Canada from the English-speaking eastern parts, too, which limits access to games in the latter region.)

You can probably appreciate why I so love digital publishing! Although even that isn't immune to things like the Canadian dollar being worth 0.69 U.S. dollars right now. (The historical average is about 0.81.) Which is another thing blocking games sales to Canada – although at least digital products avoid the high tariffs at the Canada-U.S. border.

Honestly, thanks to their shorter distances, higher population densities, and stronger currency, Northern and Western Europe are among the few regions worldwide that could "vote with their wallets" and make the games come to them.

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by GM Joe

So true!

When the store owner was all excited about GURPS, I remember shrugging and saying, "Hero does that." He replied, "No, this is different." At the time, either he couldn't explain the difference or I couldn't understand the concept he was trying to get across. I don't recall clearly. What I do remember is that I didn't believe it could be all that different, but trusting the store owner since he'd never steered my wrong before. And he was right, of course.

I still love Hero and a whole lot of other games, but GURPS really is something else. As you say, we have a plethora of universal RPGs now, but I think GURPS remains remarkable in many ways.

I'll be honest. At first, I kind of liked the idea of Gurps with it's "realism at the core" rather than the superhero genre at the core like Hero Games. Yet I also hated it at first. So it was a love/ hate thing. We were in a 100 pt. fantasy game and, honestly, we felt like the wimps of the universe. Then there was the factor that stats were so expensive (literally doubly so when buying from experience) that, while you could increased skills, you felt you would never get to play that powerful Conan type character that had that solid foundation of great attributes. I remember most of the players including me asked the GM to switch the game over to Fantasy Hero even keeping the continuity and saying that what had already happened had happened.

But we stuck with it because it was the game our GM had always hoped would come along and it grew on me. Once the GM was familiar with the system, we could adapt by giving higher points or house rules about the rules, etc.

I admit I still have bad feelings about that first campaign and, alas, first impressions do matter. I still have a fondness for Hero Games though I think that's more because of their experience system with low-priced attributes. But once you have a points level where you can fulfill what you want the character to be, the actual process of playing the game, the actual game system of Gurps is much better in my opinion.

[Skarg]

Yeah, I stumbled upon it in my local shop just before Thanksgiving 1986. We were developing house rules for TFT to make it more detailed, and this thankfully let us get back to playing.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Kromm

That's a forgivable assumption but essentially wrong. Distances in North America are difficult for those in the Western European market to appreciate. Looking at this map,

I have driven most of the continental USA (33 states), so I do have a bit of an idea about North American distances. I've only visited Canada once though and that wasn't much more than a short visit to Toronto.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Halifax is on the northeastern shore of the Caspian, in Kazakhstan, and Austin is on the Mediterranean coast of Libya. The distance is the same as Lisbon-Kyiv to within a few tens of km. But there are much greater distances possible, and the area is huge. Shipping costs track these distances.

Halifax didn't seem to be more isolated than for example Oslo and quite a reasonable sized city. Distances to some of the big US cities, like New York or Boston seem to be reasonable, at least by plane.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Canada in particular also has a very low population density: 3.6 people per square km, contrasted with 32.8 in the United States. (For fun, Portugal has 115, Ukraine has 75, Kazakhstan has 6.3 and Libya has 3.5. The Netherlands has 409.) This affects market viability. You can trace shipping routes through most of Northern and Western Europe that don't fall below 100 people per square km and mostly stay above 300; by contrast, you can't even find that kind of density in Canada outside of a few large cities. There is one corridor that might pull it off (Windsor-Québec), but that's it.

I would think that average population density matters less that the sizes of the population centres. I think it depends a lot on if you can transport something by plane, or that you need land transport, because then infrastructure matters a lot more and that would be related to population density. I would expect that for a shop to exist that carries PnP RPG material, you need 100-200.000 people in relative close proximity, maybe a university.

Originally Posted by Kromm

And Halifax is stuck out on an extremity of the continent which isn't on the way to or from anywhere. It is a "have-not" region by Canadian standards. And there aren't many people there . . . Amsterdam is 4.5 times as densely populated. Heck, Astana, Kazakhstan is more densely populated!

I learned something about Halifax and Canada today.

Originally Posted by Kromm

It is a quirk of the Canadian economy that it costs $854 for me to get a nonstop flight from where I am now (Montréal) to Amsterdam and $789 to get to Halifax.

I've just checked, and it's about €254 to get to Boston and back and €317 to Montreal and back, Amsterdam-Montreal €472. But airline prices are crazy. They fluctuate a lot, and the exact destination and route can make a big difference. Flying to big hubs is often cheaper. I've also found it often cheap to fly to Las Vegas.

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's a bit crazy how that is. Road travel in Canada involves driving very long distances over winding roads that have to follow coastlines in the east and dodge serious geology in the west; it ranges between "unsafe" and "impossible" for a few months of the year.

Yes, you need to get into Scandinavia, or quite far east in Europe, to get similar circumstances in winter. One of the stations of our telescope is in Kaira, above the Arctic circle, I'm quite happy to have never needed to go there, although right now circumstances aren't too bad.

Originally Posted by Kromm

In their infinite (lack of) wisdom, our governments have been systematically removing support for rail since the 1980s.

Ah, the joy of neoliberal governments.

Originally Posted by Kromm

These mostly stop at the Canadian border, outside of a few large cities. And in Canada, most don't carry hobby games.

I would have expected more cross-border chains. But as I said, I've not really been to Canada (yet).

Originally Posted by Kromm

Anyway, all of that is to say that even here, we have isolated regions where the market is too sparse, too remote, and too expensive to reach for niche hobby items to enjoy much penetration. My first exposure to the kind of gaming market discussed by U.S. residents on these forums happened after I moved to Montréal in 1990. And note that it wasn't quite the same because this is a French-speaking region and most hobby games aren't published in French. It has never been easy to find GURPS where I live owing to the fact that – a few brief experiments aside – the game isn't published in French. (The francophone region neatly separates the populous, wealthier, English-speaking central and western parts of Canada from the English-speaking eastern parts, too, which limits access to games in the latter region.)

Well, if Quebec is anything like France, then I can see the problem. I do know that English versions of D&D have gotten quite a bit of traction in Italy though.

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can probably appreciate why I so love digital publishing! Although even that isn't immune to things like the Canadian dollar being worth 0.69 U.S. dollars right now. (The historical average is about 0.81.) Which is another thing blocking games sales to Canada – although at least digital products avoid the high tariffs at the Canada-U.S. border.

Is it so low again? I remember carpooling with some Canadian colleagues and having a celebration because the Can$ had reached parity with the US$, somewhere in 2008 maybe? Something about Monopoly money.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Honestly, thanks to their shorter distances, higher population densities, and stronger currency, Northern and Western Europe are among the few regions worldwide that could "vote with their wallets" and make the games come to them.

That only works if we know the games exist. The internet has helped a bit, but a lot of stuff is just unknown. There is quite a bit of stuff I have to buy in the UK because it's just not available here. Especially anything that has to do with copyright is a pain, our only choice often is ordering abroad, VPN or illegal downloads. There are many things I can not legally buy which I would like to.

Originally Posted by Parabola

I admit I still have bad feelings about that first campaign and, alas, first impressions do matter.

Our first campaign was a premade published adventure for AD&D 2E. It was a level 1-3 adventure that we played with a party of only level 1s. We followed it, and the books to the letter. It was painful and lethal.
I've since had many arguments that to play the game properly, you have to ignore most of what the books say and go by how it was actually intended to be played by the designers. But this intention is only known to those that somehow have been in contact with a nebulous group of people around those designers. Not to a group of students who picked up the books at a local shop in the late nineties and just assumed that the books by themselves would provide a fun game to play. It has been my ongoing criticism of the D&D manuals, that they don't give much advice on how to play the game. I haven't read the Campaigns part of the Basic set enough to comment on the equivalent for GURPS.

[scc]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

Well, if Quebec is anything like France, then I can see the problem. I do know that English versions of D&D have gotten quite a bit of traction in Italy though.

I'm pretty sure it's WORSE in Quebec, and just to make thing even harder the form of French spoken in Quebec diverged from that in France over 300 years ago, BEFORE the language was standardized.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

It has been my ongoing criticism of the D&D manuals, that they don't give much advice on how to play the game.

They did seem to assume that you would pick up a good deal from people who already knew how to play. Such assumptions are commonplace when people with no training in technical writing try to explain things they've created themselves and are very familiar with: the basic ideas "are totally obvious."

The example characters in various early D&D adventures were "obviously" not capable of doing the job. I've learned a bit over the years about how this was intended to work by the authors, and it seems to be based in strange ideas about NPC behaviour.