Reflex Sights, NVGs, MOPP and Tactical Shooting,

[sir_pudding]

The question of just how Relfex sights interact with the rules in Tactical Shooting has come up a few times (here, here, and here).

On one hand Tactical Shooting says that you can't use any optics with Unsighted Shooting and in fact you don't even need to be able to see the weapon.

On the other hand Reflex sights give +1 to skill, just like laser optics (which must able to be used unsighted otherwise the combination of IR lasers like the PEQ-15 and NVGs would be useless). Also Tactical Shooting says that you can't make sighted shots with NVGs or Gas-masks on, but manufactures copy as well as personal experience indicates that Reflex sights can be used without cheek weld and eye relief and work fine with MOPP gear and NVGs.

After discussing this with Douglas Cole, the following seems reasonable (and barring word from HANS, is probably how I'll handle it):

• Using Reflex sights is Sighted Shooting (giving the shooter +2 (+1 from AoA: Determined and +1 from the sight).

but

• Reflex Sights allow Sighted Shooting while wearing gas masks, NVGs and so on.

Comments?

[Ulzgoroth]

I'd go with it, but I think there's a couple questions to be asked.

Does a reflex sight allow Aimed Shooting in NVGs?

Masks never actually prevented Sighted Shooting, only applied a penalty. Is that penalty eliminated when using a reflex sight?

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Does a reflex sight allow Aimed Shooting in NVGs?

Probably ought to. I've never actually shot with a reflex sight (my Battalion was against them because they use batteries) but I did get to play around with an EO-Tech at night with PVS-14s. It certainly seemed like you could aim effectively. Though possibly at a penalty.

Masks never actually prevented Sighted Shooting, only applied a penalty. Is that penalty eliminated when using a reflex sight?

I'd say it ought to at least reduce the penalty to same -1 as Unsighted Shooting.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Really, bracing a weapon in the shoulder with both hands and further using your cheek to stabilize the weapon is about as stable a platform as the human body can make without resting against something else, and allows the most precise motion control of the weapon, IMO.

Good point. This seems to mean that there ought to be penalty to Sighted Shots with Reflex Sights in situations that you can't get a cheek weld (such as with Gas Masks and NVGs.). Do you think it ought to give a -1 (the same as Unsighted masked shots) or more?

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Good point. This seems to mean that there ought to be penalty to Sighted Shots with Reflex Sights in situations that you can't get a cheek weld (such as with Gas Masks and NVGs.). Do you think it ought to give a -1 (the same as Unsighted Masks shots) or more?

Probably just -1. Check weld is important, but not that important on the GURPS scale of things. I'd actually put the mask penalty a lot higher for the vast majority of masks due to scratched up lenses.

[Daeglan]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Good point. This seems to mean that there ought to be penalty to Sighted Shots with Reflex Sights in situations that you can't get a cheek weld (such as with Gas Masks and NVGs.). Do you think it ought to give a -1 (the same as Unsighted Masks shots) or more?

No there should not. the whole point of reflex sites is that they do not require a consistent location for your eyes or eye relief. The red dot moves with the your eyes so that it is always on the point of impact at the range the sight is set for. That is what makes them fast and allows a soldier to have better situational awareness.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Daeglan

No there should not. the whole point of reflex sites is that they do not require a consistent location for your eyes or eye relief. The red dot moves with the your eyes so that it is always on the point of impact at the range the sight is set for. That is what makes them fast and allows a soldier to have better situational awareness.

How does that relate to masks and NVGs exactly?

[Phoenix_Dragon]

I asked my brother about this, after he'd been detailing his night-shoot training some, so he has some experience with NVGs. He had tried reality-checking it (He's got the NVGs, and the rifle still has its regular sight on it. Why not give it a try?). He said you could tweak your head and lean back and generally contort yourself enough to use the NVGs with a reflex sight, but you simply can not get into a good shooting posture with that setup. You have to bring your head back, as well as further over to get the lens in-line with the sight. Focal depth meant you just plain can not use iron sights, of course, and this also leaves the reflex sight rather blurred, which can further decrease accuracy. Plus there's the issue of the reflex sight being a very bright (Comparatively, even turned way down) light over a very dark background, which can flare the NVGs out -- though I would not be surprised if some manufacturer produces reflex sights with an extra-low setting for NVGs. He didn't bother even trying to shoot like that, but then, he had the laser so it wasn't needed.

Gas masks, with less bulk in front of the face, might work better, so long as the filter setup doesn't physically block you from bringing your head in closer.

If you did allow sighted shooting with them, I'd probably give a -1 for the awkwardness of the setup and the inability to stabilize the weapon as well as you could normally. Basically, the reflex sight allows sighted shooting, but gives no other bonus. For NVGs, I'd probably give an extra -1 due to the extra bulk and other issues.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Focal depth meant you just plain can not use iron sights, of course, and this also leaves the reflex sight rather blurred, which can further decrease accuracy.

That shouldn't happen, should it? Reflex sights are set up so the reticule has focal distance at infinity.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

I asked my brother about this, after he'd been detailing his night-shoot training some, so he has some experience with NVGs. He had tried reality-checking it (He's got the NVGs, and the rifle still has its regular sight on it. Why not give it a try?). He said you could tweak your head and lean back and generally contort yourself enough to use the NVGs with a reflex sight, but you simply can not get into a good shooting posture with that setup. You have to bring your head back, as well as further over to get the lens in-line with the sight. Focal depth meant you just plain can not use iron sights, of course, and this also leaves the reflex sight rather blurred, which can further decrease accuracy. Plus there's the issue of the reflex sight being a very bright (Comparatively, even turned way down) light over a very dark background, which can flare the NVGs out -- though I would not be surprised if some manufacturer produces reflex sights with an extra-low setting for NVGs. He didn't bother even trying to shoot like that, but then, he had the laser so it wasn't needed.

I'm pretty certain most of that is wrong. Reflex sights don't require eye relief or cheek weld, so as long as you mount it far enough forward you ought to be able to see it with the monocle, and the one I messed with had a setting for using it with NVGs with a dimmer, fatter aimpoint.

Gas masks, with less bulk in front of the face, might work better, so long as the filter setup doesn't physically block you from bringing your head in closer.

You can already make Sighted Shots with a gas mask on (at -4) which is consistent with my training using both iron sights and the RCO. The main problem (besides the lenses) is the awkward position you need to get the weapon in to use the sights, and the lack of cheek weld and proper eye relief. Reflex sights ought to mitigate that considerably.

If you did allow sighted shooting with them, I'd probably give a -1 for the awkwardness of the setup and the inability to stabilize the weapon as well as you could normally. Basically, the reflex sight allows sighted shooting, but gives no other bonus. For NVGs, I'd probably give an extra -1 due to the extra bulk and other issues.

So you are saying that masks should give -2 instead of -4 and NVGs -3 instead of making it flat out impossible?