[SE] "Your child is a sociopath? Fear not, we will take care of this!"

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

In the super-soldier template thread, one forumite noted that psychological traits can be those that define a super-soldier too. So, this got me thinking (in the line of remaking ÆS):

• The Justicariate is not an eutopia, so it can have its nasty bits like this one.
• Friend Computer* is proficient in figuring people out, so given sufficient surveillance (which it is), it can identify sociopaths pretty early in their lives, likely in early childhood.
• Giving them a purpose they will eagerly pursue, which is either non-destructive, or at least non-destructive for the society of the Justicariate in general, is a net gain in most senses (both for them, since the alternative would be imprisonment, and for the other citizens, would could fall victims to these fellas otherwise).
• The Justicariate is around TL9 in social technologies, so it certainly is good at brainwashing.
• Starting early should ease the job considerably.

So, I guess it would be quite logical for such a state to have a somewhat-expensive [re]education program aimed at potentially dangerous children (and former criminals, though with less focus). What I'm wondering now: just how logistically straining such a program would be for the city-state? Things to consider:

• A complex Code of Honour (think expanded Code of Harry, but government-mandated and subordinated), a Sense of Duty, or a Fanaticism, is roughly 15 points. That's 15+ successes in Regular Contests.
• A brainwasher's workhours are 16/day, for at least a month per student (30 rolls, the minimum to be sure - maybe more). That seems like a high-stress job - not likely to be less than Comfortable, since it also has serious prerequisites.
• A 5-year old has roughly IQ/Will 7 and a 10-y.o. has roughly IQ/Will 9. This will budge the odds in favour of the brainwasher somewhat. However, it is not clear if brainwashing a sociopath to follow a set of rules counts as +3 to Will for 'actively opposed focus'.
• I suspect that modifiers can be stacked in favour of the brainwasher, such as:
  • -2 Will from drugs.
  • +1 skill from Psychology (Applied) and/or Friend Computer's advice..
  • Up to +5 from Extra Time, but this is unlikely to be a good strategy.
• It is unclear if it is possible to brainwash more than one person at a time by a single brainwasher without suffering huge penalties to skill.

So far, it seems that such a system will plausibly 'reeducate' 6 super-soldiers/agents/abnormally motivated workers per year per reeducation specialist, giving those specialists about a day off per year per day of work in it (remember, this is a highly-stressful position for highly-educated people with an almost nonstop 16-hour workday).
Now, I'm not sure what the other logistic overhead would be - I suppose another Comfortable income spent on accommodations and equipment and chemicals and security and occasional medical checks per target.
That comes out to roughly Average Income × 4 (Comfortable×2 == GURP$3.6k×4 == 14.4k) highly-loyal 'agent' each month. Make it GURP$18k, including the brainwasher's paid vacation (see above).

Is $20k a reasonable price for a government to get a guarantee of high motivation and loyalty, or even fanaticism, out of their élite soldiers/officials/diplomats/whatever, but only when paid many years in advance?
Am I missing anything while adding up those numbers?
If something doesn't match up, how can the estimate be improved?

Thanks in advance!

* == Progenitor AI. BTW, the assumed population of the state is 25-50M people.

[Gorkamorka]

My question would be, how much does the individual cost? Is 20k$ worth it if the individual only costs 500$. And we are talking about 20k$ with maybe 15 years of compact interest.

[Flyndaran]

Are you sure you aren't confusing sociopaths with psychopaths?
Most sociopaths aren't criminals. They aren't any more impulsive or reckless than anyone else.
They make excellent businessmen, and for other occupations in which rational skills work better without excessive empathy and worrying about non-personal consequences.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Are you sure you aren't confusing sociopaths with psychopaths?
Most sociopaths aren't criminals. They aren't any more impulsive or reckless than anyone else.
They make excellent businessmen, and for other occupations in which rational skills work better without excessive empathy and worrying about non-personal consequences.

As far as I heard, the term sociopath is now commonly used for what psychopath was used in the past. Perhaps I'm a victim of blurring the lines and pop culture osmosis. That being said, the Justicariate is the kind of society that would be likely to treat a ruthless businessman (who follows laws only out of fear of punishment) as little better than someone who actually DOES break the law.

[dcarson]

I thought there was an age below which you can't diagnose a sociopath. All children are almost totally self centered and don't really think of other people having their own motivations until they grow up a bit.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by dcarson

I thought there was an age below which you can't diagnose a sociopath. All children are almost totally self centered and don't really think of other people having their own motivations until they grow up a bit.

Officially you can't diagnose kids with all sorts of disorders, not because they don't have them, but out of fear of "labeling" them. PC-ness hurting them instead of helping them.
I know someone that had schizophrenia before age 5, no matter what the DSM says.

Understanding that others have different desires and dislikes is gained at a very early age... so unless child means under 5 to you, we may be misunderstanding each other.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

As far as I heard, the term sociopath is now commonly used for what psychopath was used in the past. Perhaps I'm a victim of blurring the lines and pop culture osmosis. That being said, the Justicariate is the kind of society that would be likely to treat a ruthless businessman (who follows laws only out of fear of punishment) as little better than someone who actually DOES break the law.

Following laws because of fear of punishment is what laws are for. The difference is that non-sociopaths feel empathy for others, and may feel guilt when hurting those around them.
A sociopath may feel affection for another, but purely in a selfish manner. They may have internal sets of rules and guide lines. They won't all go crazy, any more than atheists do for not having religious eternal hellfire rules. Bad analogy, but the best I could come up with at the moment.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Officially you can't diagnose kids with all sorts of disorders, not because they don't have them, but out of fear of "labeling" them. PC-ness hurting them instead of helping them.

The better reason for this is that the brain is continuing to grow and develop, and some behaviors that would be considered disorders in adults are just an atypical development stage in some kids.

You have to take it on a case by case basis, certainly, but you should give kids some benefit of doubt while they're still figuring out who they are.

Especially during the all important Neuropath pruning stage (~ 12 - 25) when the brain is incredibly plastic.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by Lumus360

Flyndaran is correct in the definition used - we all, have had contact with sociopath's, but have labeled/ categorised them as a bit weird and controlling.

I highly recommend The Sociopath Next Door for a nonfiction treatment of this topic by an experienced psychologist.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by aesir23

The better reason for this is that the brain is continuing to grow and develop, and some behaviors that would be considered disorders in adults are just an atypical development stage in some kids.

You have to take it on a case by case basis, certainly, but you should give kids some benefit of doubt while they're still figuring out who they are.

Especially during the all important Neuropath pruning stage (~ 12 - 25) when the brain is incredibly plastic.

The brain is always changing and developing through life until the moment of death.
I just have trouble seeing lacking empathy completely as anything other than an innate trait rather than some kind of late blooming of such an intrinsic feature of a social animal. It's like saying that oh, little Petey hasn't grown his right arm yet; he's just a late bloomer.
Strengthening a weak mental aspect, yes, but growing a feature from nothing, I just don't believe is possible.