Tech Level Question

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem with TL(x+y) is that Steampunk used TL(5+1) for three things: Divergent Tech, superscience, and actual TL6 technology.

"Sulfanilamide is classified as TL(5+1), but it was also a TL6 medication; no penalty should apply to the skills of Chemistry/TL6 or Physician/TL6 for working with it." ([[GURPS Steamtech]] 7)

So

And what's the problem with that? The explanation seems very clear to me.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem with TL(x+y) is that Steampunk used TL(5+1) for three things: Divergent Tech, superscience, and actual TL6 technology.

"Sulfanilamide is classified as TL(5+1), but it was also a TL6 medication; no penalty should apply to the skills of Chemistry/TL6 or Physician/TL6 for working with it." ([[GURPS Steamtech]] 7)

So you can have "normal" TLz (where z=x+y) stuff side by side with TL(x+y) stuff.

As has been explained every time you’ve brought up Steampunk’s treatment of TL6 tech, it is treated as TL(5+1) in that setting because otherwise the natives of the setting would treat their own technology as divergent tech, with appropriate penalties.

If the setting lists superscience tech without a ^, I’d count that as an error.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

And what's the problem with that? The explanation seems very clear to me.

The problem is that normally "Characters used to a “normal” or “differently diverging” TL suffer an additional -2 penalty for unfamiliarity, over and above any penalties for TL differences, when dealing with divergent technology."

Steampunk admits that Sulfanilamide is both TL(5+1) and "normal" TL6 so the above is not true.

It would have been simpler (and more logical) to have TL(5+1) relate to truly divergent Tech and TL6 to refer to the real life stuff. There are places where the TL(5+1) seems to used for no other reason then the device existed before the "beginning" of TL6 (set at 1900).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem is that normally "Characters used to a “normal” or “differently diverging” TL suffer an additional -2 penalty for unfamiliarity, over and above any penalties for TL differences, when dealing with divergent technology."

Steampunk admits that Sulfanilamide is both TL(5+1) and "normal" TL6 so the above is not true.

It would have been simpler (and more logical) to have TL(5+1) relate to truly divergent Tech and TL6 to refer to the real life stuff. There are places where the TL(5+1) seems to used for no other reason then the device existed before the "beginning" of TL6 (set at 1900).

How would it be simpler and more logical for people from a 5+1 society to have a penalty when dealing with technology that is perfectly normal for their society?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

How would it be simpler and more logical for people from a 5+1 society to have a penalty when dealing with technology that is perfectly normal for their society?

It's probably simpler to remove the whole '+X' notation and just have something like:

Variant Technology
A setting's technology does not have to develop in exactly the way the standard tech path developed; this ranges from the trivial (e.g. which direction threads turn) on up. The GM should note new and unavailable technologies when defining a society. A character from a setting where a particular technology was implemented differently or not at all will have familiarity penalties of -1 to -5 when dealing with an unfamiliar tech.
Exotic Variants
Some variant technologies are only possible because of different physical laws or access to some flavor of unobtanium. All such technologies are TL^, though you can also assign them a general TL if they are only partially exotic (for example, an elemental engine is TL^, because it requires you to have fire elementals to actually make it work, but using it to run an aeolipile is not the same as using it to run a steam turbine). Assign familiarity penalties as normal when dealing with the non-exotic parts of such technologies; the exotic parts are likely to be different skills that lack defaults for characters who aren't from societies where they exist.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

How would it be simpler and more logical for people from a 5+1 society to have a penalty when dealing with technology that is perfectly normal for their society?

Divergent Technology is useful between worlds/settings rather then within an particular one. Aspirin is "normal" TL6 regardless of it being in a TL(5+1), TL6 world or even in a TL(4+2) but one would know that if a TL6 doctor stumbled on to it they could work on it without that -2 penalty thought they might have problems in other areas.

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's probably simpler to remove the whole '+X' notation and just have something like:

Variant Technology
A setting's technology does not have to develop in exactly the way the standard tech path developed; this ranges from the trivial (e.g. which direction threads turn) on up. The GM should note new and unavailable technologies when defining a society. A character from a setting where a particular technology was implemented differently or not at all will have familiarity penalties of -1 to -5 when dealing with an unfamiliar tech.
Exotic Variants
Some variant technologies are only possible because of different physical laws or access to some flavor of unobtanium. All such technologies are TL^, though you can also assign them a general TL if they are only partially exotic (for example, an elemental engine is TL^, because it requires you to have fire elementals to actually make it work, but using it to run an aeolipile is not the same as using it to run a steam turbine). Assign familiarity penalties as normal when dealing with the non-exotic parts of such technologies; the exotic parts are likely to be different skills that lack defaults for characters who aren't from societies where they exist.

I like this though technologies way before their time (ala Britannica-5) are hiccupy. Like how in the world does an otherwise TL5 society keep antimatter form going boom until they want it to? They has got to be some other TL5^.

Then there is Effective TL where magic is so common that the TL functions much higher then one would expect.

"If spells or enchanted items are common the TL is going to be hard to determine. In one area it may be on par with TL10 and in others not even to TL6. "Look at a number of commonly used spells, assign them to approximate TL equivalents, and see if these cluster around one or two TLs as usually defined; if so, use a rough equivalent TL in that range. If that doesn’t work, the TL concept may not fit the setting." It is advised that the GM should avoid assuming the setting will simply be 'just like TLx but with wizards'. (GURPS Fantasy 66)

Common magic or superscience really messes up the GURPS TL scale in a hurry.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by maximara

Divergent Technology is useful between worlds/settings rather then within an particular one. Aspirin is "normal" TL6 regardless of it being in a TL(5+1), TL6 world or even in a TL(4+2) but one would know that if a TL6 doctor stumbled on to it they could work on it without that -2 penalty thought they might have problems in other areas.

I really don't see the point of your going on about this. Those categorizations were made in Steampunk, the first GURPS book to use the TL(m+n) notation, and GURPS Steam-Tech, which amplified it. Tho notation and the underlying conceptual structure had not been fully worked out back then; for one thing, the ^ notation for superscience hadn't even been thought of. There has been an entire new edition of GURPS since then, in which the basic convention has been maintained, but the details have been revised. So what you're talking about isn't current GURPS practice.

If you think that the notation is used unsatisfactorily in current GURPS supplements—for example, in the current GURPS Steampunk line—then why not furnish examples of the problem from something current? If you don't, then hasn't the problem been solved? Why go on about books that on one hand pioneered some new concepts but on the other did not have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Divergent Technology is useful between worlds/settings rather then within an particular one. Aspirin is "normal" TL6 regardless of it being in a TL(5+1), TL6 world or even in a TL(4+2) but one would know that if a TL6 doctor stumbled on to it they could work on it without that -2 penalty thought they might have problems in other areas.

It seems to me the passage you quoted already establishes that. It is equally important to establish that people from the divergent timeline wouldn't have a problem with certain technologies that visitors might bring as it is to establish that that the visitors wouldn't have problem with certain technologies that they might encounter on arrival. And really the default assumption with GURPS Steampunk seems to be an actual steampunk campaign with all the characters being native. The x+x notation in that situation just tells the GM what the point is where things stop being all the same.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's probably simpler to remove the whole '+X' notation and just have something like:

Variant Technology
A setting's technology does not have to develop in exactly the way the standard tech path developed; this ranges from the trivial (e.g. which direction threads turn) on up. The GM should note new and unavailable technologies when defining a society. A character from a setting where a particular technology was implemented differently or not at all will have familiarity penalties of -1 to -5 when dealing with an unfamiliar tech.
Exotic Variants
Some variant technologies are only possible because of different physical laws or access to some flavor of unobtanium. All such technologies are TL^, though you can also assign them a general TL if they are only partially exotic (for example, an elemental engine is TL^, because it requires you to have fire elementals to actually make it work, but using it to run an aeolipile is not the same as using it to run a steam turbine). Assign familiarity penalties as normal when dealing with the non-exotic parts of such technologies; the exotic parts are likely to be different skills that lack defaults for characters who aren't from societies where they exist.

The merit of the TL A+B notation is (almost exclusively) in categorizing tech systems with close historical parallels followed by a very marked point of divergence. While the details remain important, you can expect that stuff up to TL A will look 'normal', while stuff from there to TL (A+B) probably exists in some form but is likely to diverge. Often by apparently being a hyper-developed TL A contraption rather than incorporating real advances...

In that context, it's not a bad marker. Outside that context, it does seem messy at best.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The merit of the TL A+B notation is (almost exclusively) in categorizing tech systems with close historical parallels followed by a very marked point of divergence. While the details remain important, you can expect that stuff up to TL A will look 'normal', while stuff from there to TL (A+B) probably exists in some form but is likely to diverge. Often by apparently being a hyper-developed TL A contraption rather than incorporating real advances...

In that context, it's not a bad marker. Outside that context, it does seem messy at best.

Yes, but most divergent histories do have a point of divergence. Like the novel by Helen Dale I just read, The Kingdom of the Wicked, where Archimedes doesn't get killed during the Roman invasion, and gives the Romans their own Newtonian revolution; their society is something like TL(2+5).

For a radically different technology, though, you'd probably have to make your best guess at how advanced they were, and call them TL(0+N). The Stone Age has the first domestications—of fire and of plans and animals—and adaptation of inorganic materials to technological use; probably any technohistory will start out with such things, however different in detail.