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Old 02-02-2017, 07:49 PM   #131
sir_pudding
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
When you say "shooting", what do you mean by that?
Deliberately causing a firearm to expel a projectile in the direction of a target.
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If what you mean is that "fire and maneuver" (tactics and positioning?) are much more important than marksmanship in combat shooting, great, but doesn't really speak to attack roll modifiers...
I mean fire and maneuver warfare: the tactical doctrine that combines suppressive fire to disrupt enemy counterfire and cohesion in support of a maneuver element which closes and assaults in close combat. Generally what the US Army calls bounding, the USMC calls rushing, and I suppose the Australians probably have some utterly badass name for. Which happen to be the central dogma of infantry combat from the 2nd World War on.

The point that I am trying (and apparently failing) to make. Is that unmodified Guns assumes that you are shooting in combat, and therefore you don't really care how well you hit or often even if you do hit. You also don't have any time at all to waste.

If you are shooting at targets conversely, you do care how well you hit, you are only going to shoot if you have a good aim and you have tons of time to aim in (comparatively even if you are timed, you still have more time in combat).

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That's already the version where I've presented it in maximally distilled form. I'm not going to try to rephrase blindly with no information about what you're actually looking for or having a problem with.
It lacks specifics, certainly. What specific game relevant problem are you seeing with doing as Doug suggests upthread (which is what I was advocating as well)?

Last edited by sir_pudding; 02-02-2017 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 02-02-2017, 07:51 PM   #132
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
That's already the version where I've presented it in maximally distilled form. I'm not going to try to rephrase blindly with no information about what you're actually looking for or having a problem with.
Looking back through the thread, you're basically looking for a way to model a character getting the "no stress" bonus (regardless of what it is) as a matter of course, or at least in situations other than unimportant target shooting, correct?

That's a bonus to ranged attack (and potentially Aiming, if using On Target) rolls, with the caveat that it won't stack with normal "no stress" bonuses. First, there's the Talent approach. Ranged skills in GURPS are Beam Weapons, Bow, Gunner, Guns, Thrown Weapon (I lump spear-thrower and throwing in here, personally), and Sling. That's few enough to count as a [5] Talent, but there are enough specializations in there you'd be justified in charging more. However, Talent would also give some side benefit, would apply to uses of the skill other than just (Aiming at and) shooting the target, and would stack with normal "no stress" bonuses - all told, [5] seems fair there.

Another option would be to extrapolate from how much it would cost to give yourself a perfectly-reliable rangefinder (for +3 to ranged attacks). Targeting Only Imaging Radar is a good fit there, and costs [12]. That has some baggage associated, which might be worth [3] or so to get rid of (or at least reduce enough to not be too problematic), getting us to [15] for +3 - again, [5] per +1.

That in mind, let's break it up a bit. The way I see it, you could have 4 main parts, with a fifth for having the ones you already have apply when there is danger to you or those you care about. The 4 would be competition (paper targets and the like when there's something at stake, like a trophy or promotion), hunting non-sapients, hunting outgroup sapients, and hunting ingroup sapients. Each of these are worth [1], with a final [1] letting the trait apply when in danger. "Outgroup" and "ingroup" are GM judgement calls, but generally the former are going to be intelligent monsters or similar, the latter humans and close races. In a setting where outgroup sapients don't exist, simply make "hunting sapients" worth [2]. The GM may require some parts as prerequisites for others - it's an odd person who has no trouble killing other humans, but balks at killing orcs.

Personally, I'd limit characters to +1 with this trait, as I don't think "no stress" should be worth more than that. If you feel up to +3 is more appropriate, feel free to go with that. Note this version gets rid of the division amongst "No Risk to Self, No Risk to Others, No Stake in Outcome" from TS - the no risk parts are combined into an enabling trait (that lets the others function when there's risk to yourself or those who matter to you), while the no stake part is mostly ignored.
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Old 02-02-2017, 08:10 PM   #133
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I mean fire and maneuver warfare: the tactical doctrine that combines suppressive fire to disrupt enemy couterfire and cohesion in support of a maneuver element which closes and assaults in close combat. Generally what that US Army calls bounding, the USMC calls rushing, and I suppose the Australians probably have some utterly badass name for. Which happen to be the central dogma of infantry combat from the 2nd World War on.
Yes great but a tactical doctrine isn't physically manifest in the situation so what saying the doctrine is the important thing means continues to be clear as mud.
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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The point that I am trying (and apparently failing) to make. Is that unmodified Guns assumes that you are shooting in combat, and therefore you don't really care how well you hit or often even if you do hit. You also don't have any time at all to waste.

If you are shooting at targets conversely, you do care how well you hit, you are only going to shoot if you have a good aim and you have tons of time to aim in (comparatively even if you are timed, you still have more time in combat).
...I'm sorry, I'm not going to even slightly buy that the standard GURPS attack is shooting when you don't care about hitting.

If you don't care about hitting, you could skip the attack roll altogether.
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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It lacks specifics, certainly. What specific game relevant problem are you seeing with doing as Doug suggests upthread (which is what I was advocating as well)?
Yes, lacking specifics is a feature. It's a somewhat broadly applicable point.

I don't think I've got a clear enough definition of the suggestion to be sure. If the suggestion is just 'use On Target', that seems okay at least on a qualitative level. The suggestion about what to do with non-combat bonuses remains a bit fuzzy - are we trashing (a) just the 'no pressure' points, (b) the +1-+4 for conditions, (c) the widely-attested but troubling +3 for known range? Are any of the remaining ones supposed to be carrying a 'non-combat only' limitation?
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Old 02-02-2017, 09:04 PM   #134
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...I'm sorry, I'm not going to even slightly buy that the standard GURPS attack is shooting when you don't care about hitting.

If you don't care about hitting, you could skip the attack roll altogether.
You still care about hitting, that's how you kill the other guy. You also care about not getting killed first though. So you care a lot less, per shot about hitting, and also you care a lot less about precision.

If you shoot thirty times in a firefight, and twenty of those shots meaningfully contribute to suppression (in game terms either by actually contributing to Suppression by combining RoFs or by forcing Fright Checks, or even just making them staying in cover allowing your maneuver element to close), two of them wound, one fatally wounds and the rest miss, that's a good outcome.

On the range that translates to one shot in the black, two in the rings and 27 misses, which is a terrible result. You are a bad shot!

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I don't think I've got a clear enough definition of the suggestion to be sure. If the suggestion is just 'use On Target', that seems okay at least on a qualitative level. The suggestion about what to do with non-combat bonuses remains a bit fuzzy - are we trashing (a) just the 'no pressure' points, (b) the +1-+4 for conditions, (c) the widely-attested but troubling +3 for known range? Are any of the remaining ones supposed to be carrying a 'non-combat only' limitation?
Well I think the consensus seems to be that the aim roll probably ought to get bonuses for visibility and contrast in the target. I still think that adjusting your sights after observed shots ought to be worth a bonus too (and I think that really ought to be IQ-based Guns). Anthony makes a great argument for windy conditions being a penalty, rather than indoor ranges being a bonus. The +3 for known range is, I agree dubious, I'll point out that it would be trivial to attach rangefinders to infantry rifles and no one does so; which you would expect if they were that useful. Where you do see them is for long range direct fire weapons (like tank guns), and for forward observers for indirect fire. It is however much easier to shoot a KD range than a UD range, so there certainly is a benefit.

I think the psychological factors are easily replaced by All-Out Aim and the improved All-Out Attack.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 02-02-2017 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 02-02-2017, 09:14 PM   #135
Christopher R. Rice
 
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
for what it's worth, Cole, I use On Target in all the games I play, and so does Ghostdancer. It's vastly superior to the existing rules, and with range and location penalties halved, it's got scaling so that every doubling of distance roughly is an additional -1 to get, well, on target.

It's hard enough to make it interesting, and easy enough that it seems real.

I know that's your position - just stating my agreement. I've never used The Last Gasp in a game, though I do think it's a clever bit of design. I do use Technical Grappling as well. So I don't just use everything I've written, but I consider On Target my best work.
Yup. They are vastly superior to the basic set and easy to memorize. I think that both "On Target" and "Broken Blade" should have been Basic Set rules for how much I use them and like them. My gamers simply will not play unless I'm using these rules. "On Target" makes aiming DRAMATIC, but the rules are not complicated or even hard to learn: choose a maneuver, make a skill roll to aim, choose a maneuver, make a skill roll to hit. That's pretty much it. In my opinion it brings back the essence of what the old Snap Shot penalty was supposed to do in a way that doesn't cause the headaches that that rule did.

TL;DR If you want exciting, useful, easy rules for aiming that are not in the Basic Set shell out the money and buy Pyramid #3/77: Combat.. It's worth it.
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Old 02-02-2017, 10:22 PM   #136
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I still think that adjusting your sights after observed shots ought to be worth a bonus too (and I think that really ought to be IQ-based Guns).
How about +2 to hit (not to exceed the Accx2 limit) with one minute and IQ-based Guns, halved (to +1) to do it as a free action and maybe Per-based Guns -4 or so for "Kentucky Windage?"

Come to think of it, it might be appropriate to have most circumstantial bonuses (high contrast, low stress, etc) be unable to let the total bonus exceed Accx2 - those are things that make it easier to get and maintain a perfect sight picture, but they do no better than that.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
It is however much easier to shoot a KD range than a UD range, so there certainly is a benefit.
What sizes are targets, what ranges are they at, and is scoring simply hit/miss or does shot placement matter? My numbers upthread imply hitting a man-sized target at 100 yards doesn't benefit for rangefinding, but scoring a headshot at that range would, and hitting one of those half-man-sized targets at 200 yards would as well. There could also be resolution issues creeping in - there are plenty of factors that would give you an increased hit rate that wouldn't translate to a full +1 to hit in GURPS.
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Old 02-03-2017, 04:14 AM   #137
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yes, I mean plotting your shots, doing the math based on range to target, and then physically adjusting settings such as sight posts, and windage and elevation knobs to adjust your group.
Between shots you may roll an IQ-based Guns roll for a complimentary bonus (-2 to +2) to your next aim roll. This takes 1 minute (and modifiers for Haste/Extra Time).

Traditionally, someone in the pit is pulling the target and putting shot spotters for you between shots although at TL8 there are electronic targets that display on a screen and also bleeding targets that ooze fluorescent goo.
Ah sorry I see your thinking in terms of target shooting, (I was thinking more about doing this in combat!). Yep I agree a complementary skill roll sounds good here.

I do think stuff like knowing the precise range, weather that because the range tells you what it is , or because you worked it out as per the situations and techniques described under sniping in TS, is going to include a lot of these adjustments.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
For what should be obvious reasons "Kentucky windage" is less precise.
Yep, but my point was more knowing the range before you start shooting at all, will allow you do some of this before trying to correct off your previous shot(s)


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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
If no rule is immune to munchkins, I'm in favor of munchkins. Munchkining the actual, correct rules is otherwise known as 'good practices', 'good tactics', or 'innovation'.

Or, if munchkiny use of the rule gives the wrong results it is because the rule gives the wrong results. If taking the rules at face value and playing accordingly is wrong, it's not worth the contortions required to keep using them 'right'.
OK I think we're in different GMing styles territory here which is a matter of POV

So cheers

TD

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-03-2017 at 07:33 AM.
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