More rulz... Mounted dodge and modern crossbows (again...)

[Phoenix42]

2 Questions, one as a player and one as a gm:

1st: I find it rather weird that there is vehicular dodge but no mounted dodge (unless I've missed something, which I don't want to rule out). If one assumes vehicular dodge is possible if one is moving, sees the target, has a reasonable chance of evasion etc., shouldn't the same be true for a horse and rider assuming both have high enough mount/ride skills (that is, 12 for dodge 8, 14 for dodge 9 etc., assuming the usual skill/2+3 rule)?

In any case, I can't help thinking that a well-trained horse and rider should be able to react as quickly as a vehicle. I'm going to be playing a mounted archer in one round and I could imagine having to dodge more than a few arrows coming my way...



2nd: One of my players in an Alpha Centauri group is using a crossbow. Now this is TL8, with slight post-apocalyptic touches; the player uses the crossbow for hunting, as a supplement for her somewhat fickle gauss rifle (which, lacking adequate repairs at TL8, is not all that reliable). The player wanted to use an mechanical spooling device to cock the crossbow and thus give it extra pull unrelated to character strength. Strangely, I didn't find any rules for mechanical/machine cocking devices.

So far, I have ruled that the spooling mechanism has a ST of 24; the apparatus is clamped to the crossbow, increasing bulk by 3; it takes a base time of 5 seconds to redraw the string and align the bolt, 3 with a successful Fast Draw roll. With the aluminum/steel bolts, the damage is 3d+2. However, the cocking device has Malf. 14, and without it, the crossbow cannot be cocked by a normal human being.

Is this realistic and/or acceptable?

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

1st: I find it rather weird that there is vehicular dodge but no mounted dodge (unless I've missed something, which I don't want to rule out).

For a mounted rider, both mount and rider have their own separate Dodges (see p. B397).

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

The player wanted to use an mechanical spooling device to cock the crossbow and thus give it extra pull unrelated to character strength. Strangely, I didn't find any rules for mechanical/machine cocking devices.

See "goat's foot," p. B270, for the sort of thing you're after. However, you'll need to come up with your own stats for a modern cranking mechanism.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

So far, I have ruled that the spooling mechanism has a ST of 24; the apparatus is clamped to the crossbow, increasing bulk by 3; it takes a base time of 5 seconds to redraw the string and align the bolt, 3 with a successful Fast Draw roll. With the aluminum/steel bolts, the damage is 3d+2. However, the cocking device has Malf. 14, and without it, the crossbow cannot be cocked by a normal human being.

Is this realistic and/or acceptable?

It's pretty clunky, but if you're doing post-apocalyptic that might be what you're aiming for, modern cocking devices tend to be hand cranked with less clunky Malf.

The normal low-tech way of cocking that level of crossbow involves having the stirrup on the bow to put your foot in and hold it down, and two claws on a harness/belt, one on each side, or a large multi-pronged claw, followed by a squat-up.
Any leather worker or iron worker should be able to make that type of harness.

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

For a mounted rider, both mount and rider have their own separate Dodges (see p. B397).

See "goat's foot," p. B270, for the sort of thing you're after. However, you'll need to come up with your own stats for a modern cranking mechanism.

Thanks, I'm aware of those (I know, Lieutenant Sarcasm and all that) - my question was whether the horse's dodge, which is pretty low even in a combat-trained warhorse, cannot be overridden (no pun intended) by the rider's skill and the horse's training to do what the rider wants it to. That is, rather than the horse trying to jump/duck/hop out the way of an attack, the rider gets the horse to do so, using his own knowledge and experience to its full effect (and most of the time, the rider knows more about the nature of the attack and how best to avoid it than the horse would). Wouldn't that also stand to reason?
As for the stats and the crossbow, well, that's what I'm trying to do, the question is whether these stats are viable.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

It's pretty clunky, but if you're doing post-apocalyptic that might be what you're aiming for, modern cocking devices tend to be hand cranked with less clunky Malf.

Yeah, it's definitely more "clunk" than theoretically necessary, and that has a lot to do with the setting. The Malf. and bulk could theoretically be much lower. My problem with hand-cranking devices is that even they have their limits; and this character wants to shoot beasties that are about rhino-size, and somewhat tougher (and more off-pissable). So you need a lot of pow to take them down with the first shot, and normal hand-cock-and-lever devices didn't really seem to do it - I even consulted a fanpage with about 15 pages of extra crossbow rules... But in the end I had to improvise; the question is whether the device is even feasible...

The normal low-tech way of cocking that level of crossbow involves having the stirrup on the bow to put your foot in and hold it down, and two claws on a harness/belt, one on each side, or a large multi-pronged claw, followed by a squat-up.
Any leather worker or iron worker should be able to make that type of harness.

Yeah - the problem is the strength maximum involved. Even with a claw/stirrup contraption, you are effectively limited by your body strength (ST+5 or the like, and that may be enough for shooting humans, but tell that to a rhino ;) ). Renaissance crossbowmen often solved this (to my knowledge) with cranking mechanisms that actually included cogwheels and gears and the like. In theory, you can simulate any amount of ST with a contraption like that (limited by size of the contraption, as well as cost, in reality), but you may need ages to crank it up. So as always with crossbows, it's damage vs. reload time. It's similar to a bike's gears as far as I get it (and I'm a layman in mechanical stuff, that's why I'm here). You can switch your bike into 1st gear and comfortably ride up a steep hill, albeit very slowly. In the same manner, you can crank a ST 30 crossbow using ST 9 and the right mechanism... but you'll probably take about 2 minutes just to get the thing drawn. That's why I was trying for a sort-of intermediate: You use a mechanical winch system with gears and cogs with an effective ST of 24 rather than having to crank the thing up by hand. It shoots relatively quickly at comparatively high power; but it still won't reload fast enough to allow for misfires at an angry enemy.

My question is: is this realistic, or have I missed something (engineers and other physics-minded people may feel particularly invited to answer)? And is it properly translated into game mechanics?

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Yeah, it's definitely more "clunk" than theoretically necessary, and that has a lot to do with the setting. The Malf. and bulk could theoretically be much lower.
...
Renaissance crossbowmen often solved this (to my knowledge) with cranking mechanisms that actually included cogwheels and gears and the like. In theory, you can simulate any amount of ST with a contraption like that (limited by size of the contraption, as well as cost, in reality), but you may need ages to crank it up. So as always with crossbows, it's damage vs. reload time. It's similar to a bike's gears as far as I get it (and I'm a layman in mechanical stuff, that's why I'm here). You can switch your bike into 1st gear and comfortably ride up a steep hill, albeit very slowly. In the same manner, you can crank a ST 30 crossbow using ST 9 and the right mechanism... but you'll probably take about 2 minutes just to get the thing drawn. That's why I was trying for a sort-of intermediate: You use a mechanical winch system with gears and cogs with an effective ST of 24 rather than having to crank the thing up by hand. It shoots relatively quickly at comparatively high power; but it still won't reload fast enough to allow for misfires at an angry enemy.
My question is: is this realistic, or have I missed something (engineers and other physics-minded people may feel particularly invited to answer)? And is it properly translated into game mechanics?

I'd say your idea is perfectly feasible. I'd say the extra 'clunk' factor would be because the character has salvaged parts from something else to make his winding mechanism. A good candidate would be an emergency airlock or door opener. When the power fails, most automated doors have a mechanical backup. This is usually a geared hand crank that levers the door open. It would suffice for cocking a crossbow. The tricky part would be adding the parts to properly mate it to the crossbow. I'd say most malfunctions would involve the mechanism slipping off (minor malfunction) or one of the spot welds failing on a really bad roll. Any machine shop, or possibly even loading dock, would have winch and gear mechanisms that *could* be adapted to do this sort of job. Again, the devil is in the details; how do you attach it securely to the bow, add a hand crank, etc. (BTW; I am an engineer, although not a mechanical one)

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

The player wanted to use an mechanical spooling device to cock the crossbow and thus give it extra pull unrelated to character strength.

Referenced from B270 "Shots", and B270 "Crossbows and ST"

First off if you didn't know, the crossbow has it's own strength, and its does dmg based on its own ST not yours. IE a ST 12 Crossbow can be fired by anyone(of ST 7 or more), however only a person with ST 12+ can re-cock it (by hand) in 4 turns (Shots: 1(4)).

Secondly, a person can re-cock a crossbow of ST +1-2 your own in 8 turns (Shots: 1(4[x2])), by hand.

And Thirdly, if you have a crossbow that is ST 3-4 greater than your own you need to use a goat's foot. IE a ST 12 Character can cock a ST16 Crossbow. If the Crossbow uses a goat's foot it takes 20 seconds to cock it, and you have to stand up to do so.

If the Crossbow is 5 ST greater than your own you cannot cock it.

But than doesn't mean someone else can't cock it for you! :)

I recently made up a "double crossbow" for a PC in my up comming DF game. Basically two crossbows stacked on top of each other. I stole the idea from "Waylander" by David Gemmell

CROSSBOW (DX-4)
TL Weapon             Damage      Acc  Range     Weight    RoF Shots  Cost ST Bulk Notes
3  Double Crossbow    thr+4 imp   4    x20/x25   9/0.06    2   2(50)  $600 7† -7   [3]

Also, the series "Nantucket Series" by S.M. Stirling had some crossbows that were cranked by a ratchet built into the foregrip; kind of like a pump air gun, but with a rachet instead of pneumatics.

CROSSBOW (DX-4)
TL    Weapon             Damage      Acc  Range     Weight    RoF Shots  Cost ST Bulk Notes
4-5?  Rachet Crossbow    thr+4 imp   4    x20/x25   9/0.06    1   1(120) $1200 7† -7   [3]

I don't know what a realistic maximum ST rating for a crossbow would be. I guess if you were going to allow regular crossbow at any ST, then maybe up to +8 greater than Char ST for the Rachet Crossbow?

If it was purely a motor powered cranking rachet system (push button->electric whirr->done) then I guess the max would be based on what material you were using for the bow portion of the crossbow.

You could conceivably have a external mechanism which you placed your regular crossbow in and it strung it for you, or have an external biological entity (Group's Huge Guy) do it for you.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kale

A good candidate would be an emergency airlock or door opener.

Or the hand-crank on any tennis court net I've seen. :-)

[Phoenix42]

Originally Posted by Kale

I'd say your idea is perfectly feasible. I'd say the extra 'clunk' factor would be because the character has salvaged parts from something else to make his winding mechanism. A good candidate would be an emergency airlock or door opener. When the power fails, most automated doors have a mechanical backup. This is usually a geared hand crank that levers the door open. It would suffice for cocking a crossbow. The tricky part would be adding the parts to properly mate it to the crossbow. I'd say most malfunctions would involve the mechanism slipping off (minor malfunction) or one of the spot welds failing on a really bad roll. Any machine shop, or possibly even loading dock, would have winch and gear mechanisms that *could* be adapted to do this sort of job. Again, the devil is in the details; how do you attach it securely to the bow, add a hand crank, etc. (BTW; I am an engineer, although not a mechanical one)

Thanks Kale, that really helped! It's nice to know that it makes sense in principle; and it's also nice to know where the parts may have come from, makes for good background. And since machinist is one of the core campaign skills, that fits perfectly! While on the subject of winches: what ST could such a device feasibly have while remaining portable? This is also a subject of general interest for me, what with car winches and stuff in "Cliffhanging" situations... I was surprised gurps basic equipment included steel cables, but no winches...

Originally Posted by Hugin

Referenced from B270 "Shots", and B270 "Crossbows and ST"

First off if you didn't know...

I did, but thanks anyway ^^
I went through most of the possibilities you mentioned (not the double-crossbow, I'll admit) as well. The problem is that thr+4 damage sounds great, but all it does is about 1d+3 for most average humans, maybe slightly more. That is not enough to punch into the prey I mentioned earlier and deal enough damage before it goes into berserk mode (not counting vitals shots, but this is going into too much detail, suffice to say I've run the simulations and most of the time with a standard+ basic set crossbow, you end up as mush beneath a ****** off rhino).

If it was purely a motor powered cranking rachet system (push button->electric whirr->done) then I guess the max would be based on what material you were using for the bow portion of the crossbow.

Good point - I'm assuming strong resilient and flexible materials. The area of play is near deep borehole mining facilities, they can get anything from steel to aluminum to titanium (the latter in smaller and more expensive amounts, of course) - probably some highly flexible but stable alloy.

You could conceivably have a external mechanism which you placed your regular crossbow in and it strung it for you, or have an external biological entity (Group's Huge Guy) do it for you.

I guess I should mention that it's a hunting crossbow, for hunting treks of one person out in the wilderness. No large recoiling-machines or huge guys present per default :)



I see that most of you are suggesting hand-driven crank mechanisms. The question is, what kind of loading time would one be looking at when using a hand crank to load a ST-24 (or more) crossbow, assuming a character ST of 11? So far, I always assumed (going by my bike metaphor) that these things would take far too long...

Thanks again for your comments! :)

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

I see that most of you are suggesting hand-driven crank mechanisms. The question is, what kind of loading time would one be looking at when using a hand crank to load a ST-24 (or more) crossbow, assuming a character ST of 11? So far, I always assumed (going by my bike metaphor) that these things would take far too long...

Part of it is gauging exactly how much tension is required to cock that ST 24 x-bow.

The basic assumption is that a ST 10 x-bow has a 160 lbs pull, going off of that then, a 24 ST x-bow would have a 922 lbs pull, at that point it's just a matter of gearing and cranking and how much pressure you're willing to put in over time.

A ST11 character with the right harness can put in 5 squats at 190 lbs pull to cock that ST 24 x-bow in 20 seconds,

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Thanks Kale, that really helped!
...
While on the subject of winches: what ST could such a device feasibly have while remaining portable? This is also a subject of general interest for me, what with car winches and stuff in "Cliffhanging" situations... I was surprised gurps basic equipment included steel cables, but no winches...

With modern materials like steel and titanium the winch is not your limit; it's the cable strength, or in the case of the crossbow the strength of the bow. Mythbusters once did a superhero episode and tried to emulate Batman's grapnel gun. They couldn't get the gun part to work successfully, but they built a tiny winch system about the size of your hand. The winch was able to lift Adam to the roof of a very tall hanger in a matter of seconds.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Part of it is gauging exactly how much tension is required to cock that ST 24 x-bow.
The basic assumption is that a ST 10 x-bow has a 160 lbs pull, going off of that then, a 24 ST x-bow would have a 922 lbs pull, at that point it's just a matter of gearing and cranking and how much pressure you're willing to put in over time.
A ST11 character with the right harness can put in 5 squats at 190 lbs pull to cock that ST 24 x-bow in 20 seconds,

Couple a mechanism like that with a small electric motor to wind instead of ratchet and you could probably get that down to a few seconds. Of course then you have to lug around the motor and a battery pack, so manual may be better in the long run.