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Old 10-02-2015, 01:34 PM   #31
simply Nathan
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
DF is Fantasy + Action! dialed to 11 and the knob ripped off...

I wouldn't use it for a Sword and Sandal for instance, especially not even an olde fashioned Conan sword and sandal.

But DF heartily supports Arnie's Conan.
I was responding to the mention of the templates from Fantasy and the implication that a skill of 12 was anemic. If the regular knight template has skill 12 with his best weapon then there's no reason to expect garden-variety orc grunts to have great skill instead of being like common human conscripts using their weapons either at default or with a single point in the skill. Normal-skill knights going won't get slaughtered by "the first orc they run into" if the orcs are built on the same worldbuilding assumptions as the knights, unless the worldbuilder's concept really is for orcs to be the sort of combat monsters that will easily kill humans' best-armored elite warriors.

For DF, PCs all tend to have really good skills in combat even when it's not part of their concept because players tend to want to go into combat with the expectation of 90% accuracy or so in battle. More combat-oriented world = more combat-oriented people, PC and NPC alike. Monsters tend to get really high stats and skills because they are purpose-designed as opposition for 250-point PCs to fight, PCs whose combat skills range from 14-25 most of the time.
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Old 10-02-2015, 01:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

I wouldn't characterize GURPS Dungeon Fantasy as "silly." You can (and people do) use its rules and stats to play a grim, gritty, life-or-death game in which nobody laughs about anything. Yes, there's some amusing fluff text around and between those rules and stats – that's to keep the series from presenting as a gray slab of boring templates, monster descriptions, and price tags, which is precisely what it would look like without a little zest. But said fluff doesn't detract one iota from the fact that the monsters are deadly . . . that minotaurs are frightening, horned berserkers . . . that millennia of straight-faced and often scary occultists believed that pyramids had supernatural powers in the real world . . . that your PC can die ignominiously in a mudslide or a wildfire . . . or a host of other grimdarkness. As the primary author, I regard the combination of often-lighthearted fluff with serious mechanics to be a way to appeal to the full spectrum of old-school hack 'n' slash gamers, who ranged from goofs playing beer-and-pretzels games to slightly obsessed people who preferred fantasy worlds and characters to reality.

But yes, I do realize that there are "medium is the message" people out there who would judge a game not by its mechanics but by the wrapper, whether that means a bit of cover art, a space-filling quote, or a little joke hidden in a snippet of throwaway text.

I guess I'm saying that I assume I'm writing for system hackers who are going to take my work apart and use only the bits they like anyway, and I want to have a little fun while writing for those people, secure in the knowledge that only the mechanical elements are going to matter to them. Were I writing a setting or an adventure rather than a toolkit, I'd obviously care more about tone.
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Old 10-02-2015, 02:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Psionics are a near enough a modern day concept, and have no good reason to be in a medieval based fantasy game, in my opinion. It's the only DF volume I don't own and have zero interest in.
To each their own. For me Taverns falls into the "I really didn't need this" category.

I've already used DF 14 Psi elsewhere as an idea primer for building powers... indeed I was originally picking up DF for use in my regular non-DF fantasy games... but I'm slowly being sold on the "No, use a Template dang it!" argument (I've rather seen Templates as being of the prime genre concepts for DF... which strangely I did not feel that way about MH or Action!).
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Old 10-02-2015, 03:07 PM   #34
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Psionics are a near enough a modern day concept, and have no good reason to be in a medieval based fantasy game, in my opinion. It's the only DF volume I don't own and have zero interest in.
I use psi to be the powers of Lovecraft style Elder Things. Their powers are alien to the DF reality but there are some people who have had their minds attuned to be able to use the powers of Elder Things. The Elder Things were extradimensional beings outside of space time and some have gotten into the reality but have been locked into prisons. But with the help of cults when the stars are right they can be freed to destroy the DF universe including the mundane, the Divine and the Infernal.
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Old 10-02-2015, 03:30 PM   #35
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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To each their own. For me Taverns falls into the "I really didn't need this" category.

I've already used DF 14 Psi elsewhere as an idea primer for building powers... indeed I was originally picking up DF for use in my regular non-DF fantasy games... but I'm slowly being sold on the "No, use a Template dang it!" argument (I've rather seen Templates as being of the prime genre concepts for DF... which strangely I did not feel that way about MH or Action!).
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I use psi to be the powers of Lovecraft style Elder Things. Their powers are alien to the DF reality but there are some people who have had their minds attuned to be able to use the powers of Elder Things. The Elder Things were extradimensional beings outside of space time and some have gotten into the reality but have been locked into prisons. But with the help of cults when the stars are right they can be freed to destroy the DF universe including the mundane, the Divine and the Infernal.
D&D has had psi for some time I believe, its a part of the grand genre mash up. It isn't for me, that's my tastes, but I have no problem if others like it. (My point was that 'silly' pointy hat psis in DF was a complete irrelevance for me, so I see nothing silly.)

I'm a fan of psi powers in SF, modern and future, McAffreys Talents series, and The Rowan and sequels. PK's Psionic Powers, etc is my gamer psi Bible.
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Old 10-02-2015, 03:56 PM   #36
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Fantasy does have a load of templates, but they're low point level, and moderately bare bones - much closer to gritty fantasy. The races are all over the place on points - which makes it trickier to mix them with the occupational templates for a target points level.
There are only really a handful of monsters, and they're scattered through the book - no easy reference to a list of monsters.

Overall - Fantasy provides far less of a basis upon which to run a games, than DF1-3 which you can buy for the same price.
I don't disagree with you, but we seem to be talking past each other. DF is absolutely better for a game "out of the box," but that game, "out of the box," is very specific. It's a "game" about killing monsters and taking their stuff. If that's what you want, and a lot of people want that, then it's great. If you don't want that, something like Fantasy might be better. Yes, it's more bare-bones, but it's a starting point. That's the point of it. It's simple, straight forward, and provides an outline upon which to build your game, which is especially useful if you need to build something that isn't specifically supported by a framework series.

And I don't mean to say that DF and Fantasy are mutually exclusive, but don't overlook fantasy as a toolkit option, and if you want to do your own thing, you probably shouldn't be tagging them as "DF," like "My DF Political Fantasy Drama" is a confusing title at best, but that doesn't mean you can't borrow from some of the DF material.

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Fantasy might help you create your fantasy world. Personally I could go along way without Fantasy for creating my own world out of my imagination and the many books I've read - some of which might be the inspiration for the game/world anyway. Fantasy does provide some useful pointers, but is not necessary.
People who post to the forum with questions about how best to do something may well be in need of a book full of suggestions on how best to do something.

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It would take me (and my players) quite a lot of time to create characters, choose gear, etc. from Basic/Powers/Magic - DF provides everything necessary to create characters and be on our way adventuring in one evening.
For an evening of killing monsters and taking their stuff, yes. But if you want something else, then DF would be a bad fit "out of the box."

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EDIT: I might also come to the GURPS Forums, to seek advice, ideas, thoughts, etc. on my ideas, thoughts, problems and questions - and I'd like to think I might get some helpful advice, and not just get beaten over the head for wanting to play my game in my way, and not in the way some other people seem to think is the 'right' way.
I don't really understand this comment. If you're here for advice, I would think you'd be open to ideas. How can we be beating you over the head for playing your game the wrong way, when you came to ask us how best to play a game? If you have a way you want to play the game, then you don't need to ask us how best to play it, hmm?

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I never said DF was the answer for any and all fantasy. Your picking a specific example that DF is clearly not targeted towards - I'm pretty sure I could come up with a dozen high/action fantasy mini campaign outlines for which DF would be a great starting point.
Yes, exactly! If this was a conversation, I would then ask "Why do you think I'm doing that?" because I want clarify what you think this conversation is about, but alas, I lack that opportunity. You seem to be defending DF, as though you think I dislike DF. I don't. But if someone wants something that DF isn't particularly geared towards providing, then DF is a bad fit (without heavy modification... and if you need advice on what those modifications should look like... that's what Fantasy is for).

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What 'better' way is there for a group, possibly relatively new to GURPS, to get going on a generic Fantasy game, in the style of something they might have read, seen or played?
I'm pretty sure Dungeon Fantasy would be a good basis for many different possibility with minimum extra work.
Yeah, that's exactly what it's meant for... but it's a mistake to assume that it's the "best fit" for all "quick-start fantasy games." That's based on the same assumption that D&D players often make, which is that all fantasy games are just D&D games with a different paintjob, but that's not true. Ars Magica is not D&D, nor is Prince Valiant, nor Game of Thrones, nor gritty, medieval Europe simulations.

So when I say "That doesn't sound like DF," that's precisely what I mean. Everything you said is correct, though you seem to not have put the pieces together on exactly what I meant just yet: I'm saying "That game you're describing doesn't seem well served by the assumptions in DF." Now, of course, if you want to play your gritty GoT game with realistic assumptions with DF... well, I'm not going to gasp and point a trembling, accusing finger at you, but I do think you'd be better served by books outside of the DF line (Thaumatology, Fantasy, the low tech line, etc).
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Old 10-02-2015, 03:58 PM   #37
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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D&D has had psi for some time I believe, its a part of the grand genre mash up.
Since the 1979 I believe.... so, yeah 'for some time'. ;)
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:00 PM   #38
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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* Perhaps silly isn't the most accurate term. "Extra Light" or "Beer and Pretzels" is probably closer to what I mean (though both are above the stereotypical "Orc and Pie"). But the Pyramid Hat is damned silly and as I'm playing a proto-Psi has probably been stuck in my mind more prominently.
I have a tagline about it in my signature. I'd say when the GURPS people talk about "Silly games," they generally mean "Not particularly concerned with realism." Final Fantasy, for example, is pretty silly. Its heroes carry about giant swords that no reasonable warrior would carry. It regularly features gameplay where 4 dudes will proceed to mow through hundreds of opponents. The ecology makes zero sense, and you often have worlds where machine guns and mecha stand side by side with wizards and swords, and the swords are often more dangerous than the machine guns. Nothing makes a lick of logical sense, but attempting to force it to make sense completely misses the point of a final fantasy game.

But that doesn't mean that final fantasy games can't hit you right in the feels. It doesn't mean that they can't be grand or epic, or that you're childish for liking them.
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:04 PM   #39
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Since the 1979 I believe.... so, yeah 'for some time'. ;)
1976, actually.
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Old 10-02-2015, 04:07 PM   #40
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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The templates in DF often do a better job matching genre expectations. For example, Fantasy has a Knight template. As a player, I might think that's the right choice if I want to play a mighty orc-slayer. But his best weapon skill is Lance at 12. He's going to get cut down by the first orc he meets.

As a GM, I like to use the toolkit and make my own templates, and I have often used Fantasy to help me do so. But if I didn't have the time or inclination to do that and I wanted to run a fantasy game with a little more context to it than standard DF, I would start by giving my players DF templates, then give them the world background and a few more points to spend on social traits. I would not give them the templates from Fantasy, because I think I would be setting up my players for disappointment. Most fantasy games are about heroes, while those templates don't describe heroes.
You're doing it right... the only mistake I would argue that you're making is that you're assuming that everyone's expectations matches DF. That's not always true. Not every gamer wants D&D... to the point where quite a few get frustrated and leave D&D games in search of something else. I know that's how quite a few people found GURPS in the first place, there's quite a market for low-key fantasy, which is why you see the popularity of products like RPM or the Low-Tech series or people asking for Middle Ages 2.

The point in saying "That doesn't sound like DF" is saying "It doesn't sound like the game you describe really fits the expectations and assumptions of DF." That is to say, if the game doesn't really sound like D&D or Diablo or Final Fantasy, then maybe you're better off using some different books.

DF is specific. That's not bad. That's good. A lot of people want the specific thing that DF is selling... but that doesn't make it the universal or "best" fantasy game. It's one tool, a really good, really useful tool, but it's just one, and it's not necessarily the best one for all possible fantasy genres. And the point is, regularly, the sort of game b-dog seems to describe doesn't sound to me like the sort of game that really use the DF assumptions. It honestly sounds more like he wants a detailed world with some really solid horror elements. Things like bare-bones Fantasy templates, some monsters out of horror, some rules out of horror, some details out of low-tech and fantasy might serve that better than 250+ point wizards and knights and thieves who mow through room after room full of monsters.
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