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Old 10-02-2015, 07:58 AM   #11
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
How about this: You can beat a nail into a board with the back end of a screwdriver, but there are better tools for the job.
I should note that, in this case, bdog appears to be trying to beat a nail into a board using a sledgehammer, and PTTG (and possibly you) are telling him he should put that down and instead make from raw wood and iron ore a more appropriately-sized hammer to do it.

DF has the advantage of already having a huge deal of rules support, so simply building a high-fantasy setting on its scaffolding seems perfectly appropriate to me.


As for the topic at hand, Innocence would arguably be built as something akin to Higher Purpose, except it penalizes others' rolls against you (rather than giving your rolls a bonus). Higher Purpose requires that you specifically pursue the task (slaying giants, kicking bunnies, whatever), so this version would require you specifically maintain your "innocence," whatever the GM deems that to be. Set the price the same as Higher Purpose ([5]/level). Personally, I'd require the character take at least as many points in "innocent" Disadvantages as he has in Innocence, but such characters can freely remove such Disadvantages in exchange for permanently getting rid of corresponding levels of Innocence. For example, a character with Innocence 5 [25] might have Clueless [-10], Gullibility (15) [-5], Truthfulness [-5], and Vow (Chastity) [-5]. If the character decides telling lies really isn't all that bad, he can get rid of Truthfulness - but his Innocence will drop to 4.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:43 AM   #12
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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I should note that, in this case, bdog appears to be trying to beat a nail into a board using a sledgehammer, and PTTG (and possibly you) are telling him he should put that down and instead make from raw wood and iron ore a more appropriately-sized hammer to do it.
Or GURPS Fantasy, which is actually designed for broader fantasy RPGs, including things like cosmology design, world-building, occupational and racial templates, etc.

(But since DF came out, many DF fans have acted like its deprecated, or seem utterly unaware of its existence. You should check it out! It's quite an excellent book)
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Or GURPS Fantasy, which is actually designed for broader fantasy RPGs, including things like cosmology design, world-building, occupational and racial templates, etc.

(But since DF came out, many DF fans have acted like its deprecated, or seem utterly unaware of its existence. You should check it out! It's quite an excellent book)
As I said - GURPS Fantasy and GURPS Thaumatology are perfectly good books - but they are toolkits, and do not have a lot you can take straight out of the box and run a game with. Unlike DF which has ready to use Templates, Gear, Rules, Power-Ups, Races, Allies, Monsters, etc.
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Old 10-02-2015, 08:58 AM   #14
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Unlike DF which has ready to use Templates, Gear, Rules, Power-Ups, Races, Allies, Monsters, etc.
There's just so much silliness you have to scrape off DF...


Granted, if you want templates, I agree it is the easier way to go.
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Old 10-02-2015, 09:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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As I said - GURPS Fantasy and GURPS Thaumatology are perfectly good books - but they are toolkits, and do not have a lot you can take straight out of the box and run a game with. Unlike DF which has ready to use Templates, Gear, Rules, Power-Ups, Races, Allies, Monsters, etc.
Fantasy has out-of-the-box templates, races, monsters, something that I have to constantly point out. Is there a particular reason that certain elements of the forum seem determined to ignore the presence of that material?

Secondly, if you're toolkitting, shouldn't you use toolkit books? If you say things like "I wish DF had more setting to it." and "I want to explore the cosmology of my fantasy world more, but DF doesn't really have anything for that" and "I find DF unrealistic. I mean, why is the village even there," you're asking questions that DF wasn't designed to answer but that Fantasy was. That's what it's for.

DF does come with all the stuff you say, but it's geared towards a specific thing. What if I want a different thing? What if I want a slice-of-fantasy-life game with relatively ordinary people who investigate the horrors of their fantasy world and slowly go mad, in a sort of fantasy call-of-cthulhu? Are the DF templates, races, gear and general rules really the best choice for that sort of game?

"Dungeon Fantasy" is a specific product geared towards a specific sort of game. When it comes to the other framework lines, people understand this, but DF seems to have blinded people. I suppose it's because people who play D&D are used to mashing whatever into that game: If they want to play Game of Thrones, they make D&D characters and just ignore all the combat stats and roll a d20 and have their Game of Thrones story, and the average DF player works the same way.

But there is a better way.
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Old 10-02-2015, 10:04 AM   #16
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Fantasy has out-of-the-box templates, races, monsters, something that I have to constantly point out. Is there a particular reason that certain elements of the forum seem determined to ignore the presence of that material?
DF does one thing the base Fantasy does not: Puts all the rules into nice orderly boxes.

What it does not do without a small amount of work: Serious Fantasy.



Having now played a bit in someone else's DF game which is being run seriously, I've scrapped off the silly veneer (and am tweaking a few things here and there) and I can see DF can pretty easily be used for 'serious roleplaying'.
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Old 10-02-2015, 10:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Fantasy has out-of-the-box templates, races, monsters...
The templates in DF often do a better job matching genre expectations. For example, Fantasy has a Knight template. As a player, I might think that's the right choice if I want to play a mighty orc-slayer. But his best weapon skill is Lance at 12. He's going to get cut down by the first orc he meets.

As a GM, I like to use the toolkit and make my own templates, and I have often used Fantasy to help me do so. But if I didn't have the time or inclination to do that and I wanted to run a fantasy game with a little more context to it than standard DF, I would start by giving my players DF templates, then give them the world background and a few more points to spend on social traits. I would not give them the templates from Fantasy, because I think I would be setting up my players for disappointment. Most fantasy games are about heroes, while those templates don't describe heroes.

What about monsters? Most players expect to fight monsters, not just hear about them. How many of the monsters in Fantasy would make a good fight for an adventuring group? Well, there are a total of about eight monsters in the Monsters section of the book. Most of them are way beyond what a party could ever survive a hostile encounter with (Brontes, Rukh, Tiamat, etc.). They make interesting world background, and I'm sure they could lead to cool stories, but if I'm running a game where the characters fight monsters (and I don't want to take the time to design my own--thanks to you for helping us do that!), again I'm cracking open a DF book to find a monster that's ready to go with a nice stat block and a reasonable path to victory. Even if it's a game in which the characters come from someplace and have a purpose in life other than dungeon-delving, the story has a plot, and the encounters happen for a reason that might advance the story.
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Old 10-02-2015, 10:28 AM   #18
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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For example, Fantasy has a Knight template. As a player, I might think that's the right choice if I want to play a mighty orc-slayer. But his best weapon skill is Lance at 12. He's going to get cut down by the first orc he meets.
Unless that orc has spear or broadsword at 9 or default (DX-5 = 5). There's no reason to expect every warrior to have all his weapon skills at 14+. 12 is a professional full-time warrior's expected skill level.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:16 AM   #19
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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There's just so much silliness you have to scrape off DF...


Granted, if you want templates, I agree it is the easier way to go.
People keep tarring DF with the 'lots of silliness' brush, but I don't think its true.

Would you (or someone else) mind giving some specific references to what you consider the 'so much silliness' in any of the DF products?
A couple of specifics from the original core books (DF1-3) at least.
I'm not talking about the tongue in cheek writing style, or one or 2 specific monsters - I'm pretty sure I could find examples of both of those from many other GURPS books.
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Old 10-02-2015, 11:26 AM   #20
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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People keep tarring DF with the 'lots of silliness' brush, but I don't think its true.

Would you (or someone else) mind giving some specific references to what you consider the 'so much silliness' in any of the DF products?
A couple of specifics from the original core books (DF1-3) at least.
I'm not talking about the tongue in cheek writing style, or one or 2 specific monsters - I'm pretty sure I could find examples of both of those from many other GURPS books.
I agree. If they want silliness, let's give them silliness: Convert Munchkin 3.5 to Dungeon Fantasy! That'll show 'em.

In all seriousness, though, the DF templates work just fine for general purposes. Look at the Suggested Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills. Anything missing that you think should be in your campaign? Take those and apply your own custom Lenses, adding in what you think is appropriate and removing what you think isn't to make them fit to your campaign. The Knight template from Fantasy always struck me as either a low-powered campaign level or else a quick-and-easy template for NPCs (if I'm recalling it right).
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