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Old 10-01-2015, 09:56 PM   #1
b-dog
 
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Default Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

In a DF world, one often wonders why the good folk who live in a town by a dungeon don't get butchered or eaten by the demons and undead that live within the dungeon. Leveled Innocence is an idea to explain why. For every level on Innocence, the NPC or PC gives a penalty to all attacks (spells, physical assaults, beguiling etc. ) to any supernatural evil creature. (Demons, undead, wizard black magic, evil clerics). Thus a person with Innocence 5 would give a demon a penalty of -5 to attack by claw or supernatural power. A baby might have a very high Innocence level because it is truly innocent. The Innocence might lower as the baby becomes a child and adult. But a farm worker might still remain innocent and maybe also have some True Faith as well.

A barbarian PC might have some level of Innocence due to his avoidance of humanity. Demons and undead might be less likely to affect an Innocent barbarian than would be normal.

The way it works is that the Divine does not let true evil harm the innocent. Once they have sinned or lost innocence then it is fair game for evil to attack. The reason I feel it should be leveled is because I think that nobody should ever be completely immune to evil creatures, instead if you are innocent then evil has a much harder time trying to harm the innocent.

An interesting idea from this might be why demons want mortals to sacrifice the innocent to them. Maybe someone that is truly innocent can not be harmed by a demon or it would be too difficult to do so. But if the demon can convince a mortal to sacrifice and innocent to them then maybe the demon gets something from the innocence and also is happy that he corrupted the soul of the mortal who sacrificed the innocent person to the demon. Just a thought.
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Old 10-01-2015, 10:45 PM   #2
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

Why use Dungeon Fantasy? You clearly want it to be about Christian Mythology, why not homebrew a Christian Dark Age setting in earnest instead of shoehorning a bunch of separate changes into DF?

Start from the top: You want to build a fantasy setting where Godly and Evil forces clash and heroes fight for Good against Evil. This has a great spot for PCs- the heroes- but you need to make sure your players are going to be happy with their roles.
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Old 10-01-2015, 11:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by PTTG View Post
Why use Dungeon Fantasy? You clearly want it to be about Christian Mythology, why not homebrew a Christian Dark Age setting in earnest instead of shoehorning a bunch of separate changes into DF?

Start from the top: You want to build a fantasy setting where Godly and Evil forces clash and heroes fight for Good against Evil. This has a great spot for PCs- the heroes- but you need to make sure your players are going to be happy with their roles.
I agree with this sentiment.

This is not DF with Christian religious elements mashed into it; this is a distinct Medieval Christian Fantasy setting that just happens to use DF supplements for templates and companions. Approach it from that angle, b-dog, and you'll probably find your ideas mesh better.
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Old 10-02-2015, 12:32 AM   #4
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
In a DF world, one often wonders why the good folk who live in a town by a dungeon don't get butchered or eaten by the demons and undead that live within the dungeon..
I do not. Because in any DF world I've ever seen they DO get eaten. Which is why they say to adventurers, "Hey, there's a underground complex over thataway that might have treasure in it."
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
I do not. Because in any DF world I've ever seen they DO get eaten. Which is why they say to adventurers, "Hey, there's a underground complex over thataway that might have treasure in it."
Exactly. [Suckers... err meatshiel... ummm useful idi... - AHEM- Adventurers are why the ones that don't get eaten, don't get eaten.
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Old 10-02-2015, 05:56 AM   #6
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by b-dog View Post
In a DF world, one often wonders why the good folk who live in a town by a dungeon don't get butchered or eaten by the demons and undead that live within the dungeon. Leveled Innocence is an idea to explain why. For every level on Innocence, the NPC or PC gives a penalty to all attacks (spells, physical assaults, beguiling etc. ) to any supernatural evil creature. (Demons, undead, wizard black magic, evil clerics). Thus a person with Innocence 5 would give a demon a penalty of -5 to attack by claw or supernatural power. A baby might have a very high Innocence level because it is truly innocent. The Innocence might lower as the baby becomes a child and adult. But a farm worker might still remain innocent and maybe also have some True Faith as well.

A barbarian PC might have some level of Innocence due to his avoidance of humanity. Demons and undead might be less likely to affect an Innocent barbarian than would be normal.

The way it works is that the Divine does not let true evil harm the innocent. Once they have sinned or lost innocence then it is fair game for evil to attack. The reason I feel it should be leveled is because I think that nobody should ever be completely immune to evil creatures, instead if you are innocent then evil has a much harder time trying to harm the innocent.

An interesting idea from this might be why demons want mortals to sacrifice the innocent to them. Maybe someone that is truly innocent can not be harmed by a demon or it would be too difficult to do so. But if the demon can convince a mortal to sacrifice and innocent to them then maybe the demon gets something from the innocence and also is happy that he corrupted the soul of the mortal who sacrificed the innocent person to the demon. Just a thought.
Its a nice simple idea, a sort of Supernatural protection for the mundane populace in a very unsafe world. A sufficiently powerful evil (or specially conjured/crafted creature) could overcome it to kidnap or kill 'innocents'.
An addition to the sacrificing innocents, might be that the protective 'essence' of the 'innocence' is something which is released if they are sacrificed, and the demons can somehow 'feed' on it.
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:15 AM   #7
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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In a DF world, one often wonders why the good folk who live in a town by a dungeon don't get butchered or eaten by the demons and undead that live within the dungeon.
I, for one, do not stop while playing Diablo to ponder the greater economic or sociological implications of a convenient set of shop-sellers (who seem to get daily deliveries of wondrous new artifacts for their customer-base of 1) sitting atop the mouth of hell.

I mean, I love games like Civ and Crusader Kings, games where economic and sociological implications are the intent, or games like Ultima or EVE where there's actual world-building and created believable logistic chains and cultures and the people act as you would expect. But they're not Dungeon Fantasy.
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:15 AM   #8
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by PTTG View Post
Why use Dungeon Fantasy? You clearly want it to be about Christian Mythology, why not homebrew a Christian Dark Age setting in earnest instead of shoehorning a bunch of separate changes into DF?

Start from the top: You want to build a fantasy setting where Godly and Evil forces clash and heroes fight for Good against Evil. This has a great spot for PCs- the heroes- but you need to make sure your players are going to be happy with their roles.
Why not. DF is a subset of GURPS rules and templates for playing Fantasy heroes. DF does not proscribe a specific setting, or religion or culture - those are provided by the GM and players.
Yes, it started as 2 dimensional heroes raiding dungeons for treasure - but it has extended to include wilderness rules, and rules for social traits and towns (Pyramid). The DF16's Wilderness rules and template notes are certainly useable in a non-DF and entirely serious Fantasy campaign.

Its perfectly reasonable to take virtually everything from the DF books (and nothing else but Basic and Magic - required for 'purist' DF anyway) - and run a high fantasy game of heroes, kingdoms, and monsters in the vein of any number of books, including ideas and concepts from our own worlds history and mythology.

I'm pretty sure the old D&D rules were used for all manner of non-traditional settings and genres before there were any 'official' d20 Modern, or d20 Space, etc.
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Old 10-02-2015, 06:29 AM   #9
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by SCAR View Post
Why not. DF is a subset of GURPS rules and templates for playing Fantasy heroes. DF does not proscribe a specific setting, or religion or culture - those are provided by the GM and players.
Yes, it started as 2 dimensional heroes raiding dungeons for treasure - but it has extended to include wilderness rules, and rules for social traits and towns (Pyramid). The DF16's Wilderness rules and template notes are certainly useable in a non-DF and entirely serious Fantasy campaign.
Why not Monster Hunters? Monster Hunters is a subset of GURPS rules and templates for playing Fantasy heroes. MH does not proscribe a specific setting or religion or culture -- those are provided by the GM and players. Yes, it starts as modern heroes investigating supernatural creatures and then killing them... but it has been extended to include detailed fantasy monsters and sidekicks and even the fae and cabalistic wizards. Its magic was even expanded, and can be used in loads of non-MH games!

How about this: You can beat a nail into a board with the back end of a screwdriver, but there are better tools for the job.
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Old 10-02-2015, 07:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: Leveled Innocence advantage for DF idea

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
Why not Monster Hunters? Monster Hunters is a subset of GURPS rules and templates for playing Fantasy heroes. MH does not proscribe a specific setting or religion or culture -- those are provided by the GM and players. Yes, it starts as modern heroes investigating supernatural creatures and then killing them... but it has been extended to include detailed fantasy monsters and sidekicks and even the fae and cabalistic wizards. Its magic was even expanded, and can be used in loads of non-MH games!

How about this: You can beat a nail into a board with the back end of a screwdriver, but there are better tools for the job.
You could indeed. However, Monster Hunters is built on the basis of a TL8 'setting' and Gear - so it probably would make a decent starting point for a modern day urban fantasy. (Or for modern day heroes dropped into a medievalesque 'Dungeon' - as Mr Pulver wrote about in an issue of Pyramid, or mlangsdorf recently blogged about. - not that either of those specifically uses Monster Hunters as a basis.) - but its not really the best basis for running something like Dragon Lance or Conan.

Dungeon Fantasy is built around TL0-4, which is basically what you'd expect of a 'traditional' high fantasy setting.

And what better tools does GURPS provide for playing a High Fantasy Heroes, than Dungeon Fantasy? Fantasy and Thaumatology are great toolboxes, but there is very little there you could just take out and play.

Last edited by SCAR; 10-02-2015 at 08:06 AM.
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