Car Wars 6E Effort

[kbs666]

Originally Posted by KevinR

To ask the obvious, are you aware of to whom you are replying, and his role in Car Wars history?

Yes, I know who Scott is. I was there when Scott ran Car Wars the first time. And that's enough said about that.

[philreed]

Originally Posted by ammulder

. . . but I also assume they're not completely negligible since we're talking about a new edition of Car Wars at all.

The two are unrelated.

[morleydotes]

Originally Posted by kbs666

Yes, I know who Scott is. I was there when Scott ran Car Wars the first time. And that's enough said about that.

***Mod Hat On***

Ok, lets be very, very clear here. SJ staff are undertaking a project to bring back Car Wars. If they wanted to re-release the old one, they would have, but instead they want to create a newer edition, with legs.

Snarky comments, "You don't know what your doing" comments, and "I know more about this, than you do" comments (with out proof, numbers and supporting documentation). will grab my attention.

I expect / encourage / support, adult discussion, suggestions and input. Temper tantrums, unsupported whining and "because I said so", will not add to the creation of this edition.

***Mod Hat Off***

Off to blow up Ogres, have a great day!

Pat

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by KevinR

In my opinion, SJG is re-releasing Car Wars Classic in October as a final chance for the classic 1980s-style Car Wars.
* If you love that style of Car Wars, buy Car Wars Classic and, more importantly, convince other gamers to buy Car Wars Classic. With better-quality components and the fantastic rules that made Car Wars great, that should be an easy task. Especially for less than $20.

I already have Classic in several versions. In the intervening 30 or so years I have resolved the component aspects to my satisfaction. I won't be buying yet another version of Classic.

Originally Posted by KevinR

if Car Wars Classic does not sell fantastically (far above COO Phil's low expectations), that era of Car Wars is over: no game company can stay in business making low-priced boutique games, and few hobbists have deep enough pockets to burn money like that.

That era of CW is already over, has been for 20 years. Why are you even testing the hypothesis?

Originally Posted by KevinR

If you want Car Wars back as it was, talk to gamers and (especially) game store owners; convince them that they need this game and should be pre-ordering it and re-ordering it as their shelves clear.

I didn't ask SJG to produce this product, I won't be advising my FLGS to stock it, I wont be bad mouthing it, but to endorse a product you have to believe in it. The CW Classic boat sailed years ago. Even if you were to sell separately just the bits I don't have (i.e. the thicker counters), I would still find it hard to justify buying it, let alone promoting it.

Originally Posted by KevinR

And if you can't convince a gamer to buy Classic, ask them why.

Because they can already buy it on e-23. PDF is more convenient to reference the disjointed rules. If it had been re-worked maybe (but the effort to do so would haven't been worth the effort expended. With the money saved you can buy scads of print-shop counters of exactly the type you want or elect to do it in 3-D if that's your bag.

Originally Posted by KevinR

Why did they stop playing,

.
They didn't, they just ran out of things to buy (which may have made it look like we weren't playing to the accountants). We still get the old kit out occasionally (plus the stuff we upgraded ourselves while we were waiting). We have found alternate mechanisms. If you leave players out in the wilderness you shouldn't be surprised if they learn to mange without you.

Originally Posted by KevinR

and why won't they drop $20 and start playing again? Understanding why Car Wars isn't widely played is important to identifying what is needed to make 6e a good version of Car Wars (and a profitable and thus long-lived one).
[End rant. Return soapbox.]

Personally I think I have dropped enough money into the keep CW alive tin what with buying the PDFs on e-23 in addition to my original purchases. If you keep putting stuff out in PDF, I'll probably buy more, but I am refusing to re-buy for a fourth time the same rehashed material.

To SJG:
Focus on 6th and I may buy well buy it. Make whatever commercial decisions you need to and do it whatever way you want, it is your IPR, your business and your choice. I am simply putting down the criteria that will lead to a successful sale to me.

If you want to gauge the potential market do it with Kickstarter like everyone else, but I believe this is where I came in.

[philreed]

There are more Car Wars players from the eighties not playing the game today than there are Car Wars players aware of our current efforts. Never discount the strength of nostalgia for bringing a group back to something they once loved.

Nostalgia releases in the hobby market are not at all a new concept. Most recently we can look to Wizard's various nostalgia products released during their build to a new edition. And then there are other markets like comics that use nostalgia products to bring old fans back and introduce new potential fans to past efforts.

[kbs666]

Originally Posted by philreed

There are more Car Wars players from the eighties not playing the game today than there are Car Wars players aware of our current efforts. Never discount the strength of nostalgia for bringing a group back to something they once loved.

Nostalgia releases in the hobby market are not at all a new concept. Most recently we can look to Wizard's various nostalgia products released during their build to a new edition. And then there are other markets like comics that use nostalgia products to bring old fans back and introduce new potential fans to past efforts.

And if you release a product that says Car Wars on the box and isn't Car Wars inside like Fifth Edition wasn't then when those old time fans see it on the shelf at their FLGS they may buy it and take it home and open it just like they did with fifth and discover once again that it isn't actually Car Wars and never play it and never buy any more product.

To take the Wizards example look at what happened to D&D 4th edition. Wizards claimed it was a modern, play tested RPG. The fan base loathed it and that may be an understatement. 5th will return to a more traditional version of the game.

[Blue Ghost]

Originally Posted by philreed

I'm fairly certain our plan for tank rules is: No.

We're working on Car Wars and want to focus on building a world and game that embraces one fun concept:

Cars with guns.

So no addons?

[powellhall]

I, for one, have been playing CW since the first pocket box, have bought every supplement and new version and liked every one INCLUDING 5th. I will also, without a doubt, be buying into 6th.
From reading these posts, it appears that there are as many different KINDS of players as there are players, each one is looking for something different.
I will be buying 6E, even if it has elements that I may not use and I will make the best of it.
Making a game that tries to please everybody would be almost impossible but I think that if SJG builds a good game, it will sell.

p.s. ( I will be joining the Kickstarter )

[ColBosch]

Originally Posted by Blue Ghost

So no addons?

I think Phil would love supplements and expansions, just no tanks. I'd agree; there may be a place for a Car Wars-style game with tanks, and one with aircraft, but shoehorning everything into the line at once was suboptimal. The same thing happened to BattleTech, but they didn't catch it in time, and now what were 32 pages of rules take up six hardbound volumes and counting.

[Blue Ghost]

Well yeah, I wouldn't want to buy another "massive tome" game with everything in it, but I do recall one of "desires" back in the 80s (after the game had been out for a couple of years) was the desire for tanks. Then we get the Dempsey in ADQ, and then ten years later comes the boxed supplement.

Don't get me wrong; I actually don't want to see boats, jet-fighters, and everything else thrown in there. But for a game that is about vehicle combat it seems like sooner or later tanks would be a natural development for the game.

That was my argument way back in 1982, and I'm still kind of sticking by that.

Anyway, whatever comes down the pipeline, I'll check it out.