Skills to build the Nautilus (and similar revolutionary vehicles)

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by whswhs

You can look at it that way. But you can also look at it as "Verne didn't realize the physical limitations of real structures," just as he didn't realize the limited energy content of primary batteries or the lethal effects of high accelerations. "Advanced technology" and "author ignorance" aren't equivalent.

The book has a fair bit of (to a modern engineer, not very convincing) bafflegab about how the Nautilus's capabilities were achieved. But on the other hand, nobody else in the setting has achieved any of this, despite Aronax apparently finding Nemo's one-sentence explanations perfectly convincing and plausible...

Originally Posted by whswhs

And while I could run a Verrnean campaign where Nemo's batteries revolutionized industry and transport (imagine locomotives powered by batteries with no need for fuel, or electric cars good for a trip across North America), I could also run one where the amazing Nautilus is just a unique invention that other people won't imitate.

Actually, Verne at least has the Nautilus's batteries recharged once. If you want gross excess, look to Robur's batteries. But Verne had pretty clearly given up even trying to bluff by the time he wrote Clipper of the Clouds - or, one could say, developed the honesty to admit that he was inventing space opera, not technothrillers.

[Michael Thayne]

I fear my choice of fictional examples may have taken us rather far astray from the thing I was actually wondering about. A better example might be: imagine a TL11^ setting has lots of super science but no cloaking devices. If a genius inventor (perhaps with Gadgeteer) wants to build a new class of cloaked ship, not just slapping a cloaking device on an existing design but something purpose-built for the role of a stealth attack craft, do they just need [strike]Engineer (Electronic Warfare)[/strike] Engineer (Electronics)-21, or do they also need Engineer (Spacecraft)-21?

Edit: I remembered after posting this that Engineer (Electronics) is one skill, there aren't separate specialties for different types of electronics.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

The book has a fair bit of (to a modern engineer, not very convincing) bafflegab about how the Nautilus's capabilities were achieved. But on the other hand, nobody else in the setting has achieved any of this, despite Aronax apparently finding Nemo's one-sentence explanations perfectly convincing and plausible...

It is realistic, though, that 90% of a brilliant new engineering design is ingenious uses of "prior art." The proverbial "spark of genius" lies in seeing that you can put pieces of it together to accomplish something unexpected. Or, in science fiction, that you can use it to handwave a technological marvel that enables your story.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I fear my choice of fictional examples may have taken us rather far astray from the thing I was actually wondering about. A better example might be: imagine a TL11^ setting has lots of super science but no cloaking devices. If a genius inventor (perhaps with Gadgeteer) wants to build a new class of cloaked ship, not just slapping a cloaking device on an existing design but something purpose-built for the role of a stealth attack craft, do they just need Engineer (Electronic Warfare)-21, or do they also need Engineer (Spacecraft)-21?

My guess would be that they need Engineer (Spacecraft)-18. They're not building a spacecraft that works on radical new principles; they're adapting an existing spacecraft to accommodate a radical new technology. I can see that plausibly being Complex, but probably not Amazing.

It would also count as modification rather than invention de novo. At least for a Gadgeteer, that makes it easier.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I fear my choice of fictional examples may have taken us rather far astray from the thing I was actually wondering about. A better example might be: imagine a TL11^ setting has lots of super science but no cloaking devices. If a genius inventor (perhaps with Gadgeteer) wants to build a new class of cloaked ship, not just slapping a cloaking device on an existing design but something purpose-built for the role of a stealth attack craft, do they just need Engineer (Electronic Warfare)-21, or do they also need Engineer (Spacecraft)-21?

They need 'unusual background: string of critical successes on inventing'. Someone with a single amazing invention isn't a genius inventor, they're someone who got lucky.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Anthony

They need 'unusual background: string of critical successes on inventing'. Someone with a single amazing invention isn't a genius inventor, they're someone who got lucky.

Lots of people in real life are mainly known for one invention, but that doesn't mean they would have no idea how to build other stuff. And Gadgeteer allows for more extreme manifestations of this.

I think I might be getting myself needlessly confused here on account of not taking seriously that Engineer specialties are meant to be much broader than for other skills. For example, Engineer (Starships) is specifically mentioned as being an available specialty, so you don't need separate skills for the stardrive and the rest of the ship. Now, how you acquire Engineer (Starships) when people in your setting only know Engineer (Spaceships) is quite a question. But in principle you only need one skill.

Actually, having those two skills be separate is a bit weird, since the knowledge required to design starships is a superset of the knowledge required to design spaceships. Well, in some settings anyway. (I guess there are also settings where Rocketships and Warpships might be separate specialties.) I can think of at least three ways to handle the difference: familiarity penalties, perks (like Technology Secret from The Weird), or maybe a technique. Thoughts?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Lots of people in real life are mainly known for one invention, but that doesn't mean they would have no idea how to build other stuff.

Sure; if you don't have enough skill you can't even try to get a critical success. Point is, there's a significant chunk of luck at figuring out the right way of looking at a problem.

Actually looking at the inventing rules on B473 (which I don't terribly like), inventing a device that's based on a technology that doesn't currently exist in the setting is at -11 to -27 depending on its complexity, so requires a modified skill (possibly including equipment bonuses) of 14-30 to even try to roll, or 9-25 if it's a variant on an existing device (retrofitting a rocket to have a warp drive arguably applies a -5 for the basic tech being new and a +5 for being a variant on an existing device).

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Actually looking at the inventing rules on B473 (which I don't terribly like), inventing a device that's based on a technology that doesn't currently exist in the setting is at -11 to -27 depending on its complexity, so requires a modified skill (possibly including equipment bonuses) of 14-30 to even try to roll, or 9-25 if it's a variant on an existing device (retrofitting a rocket to have a warp drive arguably applies a -5 for the basic tech being new and a +5 for being a variant on an existing device).

The penalties are less harsh with Gadgeteer—which is why I keep mentioning the advantage.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

The penalties are less harsh with Gadgeteer—which is why I keep mentioning the advantage.

For some reason my first pass reading didn't notice that, but mostly it means people should have one-off versions of gadgeteer; while some cinematic gadgeteers are generalists, a lot of them have one amazing thing and outside their specialty are merely good.

[dcarson]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Nemo kind of reminds me of a typical comic book genius super villain:

"I've invented a technology that would revolutionize virtually every industry. I could steal thousands of dollars with this."

Nemo wasn't in it for the money. The British had destroyed his family and country. He wanted to hurt them as much as possible while not committing atrocities.