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Old 06-30-2017, 10:15 AM   #1
JMason
 
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Default Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

ISW states that "Fuel processor systems are rated for the amount of unrefined fuel that they can process in one hour". Is the unrefined fuel in this sentence input or output?

I've never been clear if skimmed gas/water/ice = "unrefined fuel" that a processor can turn into refined fuel, or is just raw material that is turned into unrefined fuel.
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

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ISW states that "Fuel processor systems are rated for the amount of unrefined fuel that they can process in one hour". Is the unrefined fuel in this sentence input or output?

I've never been clear if skimmed gas/water/ice = "unrefined fuel" that a processor can turn into refined fuel, or is just raw material that is turned into unrefined fuel.
An input. Traveller fuel processors originally turned scooped gas giant atmosphere ("unrefined fuel") into the same number of tons of "refined fuel".

Handling water or ice at all is a later concession to the fact that diving into a gas giant atmosphere is a pretty stupid way to obtain hydrogen when you have the levels of power available to Traveller starships - fuel processors may not be capable of that at all depending on the edition of the game you are using. Changes in mass or volume of output compared to input to account for the composition of the unrefined fuel are logical, but I believe are all house rules, not something in any of the starship design sequences.
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Old 06-30-2017, 03:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

Hm, then why would anyone ever buy refined fuel? Fuel processors are "standard issue" on a lot of ships, and seem to be pretty cheap otherwise. Is processing time really that big of a drawback?
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Old 06-30-2017, 04:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

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Hm, then why would anyone ever buy refined fuel? Fuel processors are "standard issue" on a lot of ships, and seem to be pretty cheap otherwise. Is processing time really that big of a drawback?
For large unstreamlined ships, getting unrefined fuel often involves going well out of your way. For streamlined PC-type ships visiting worlds with hydrographic percentages above zero, there's not much RAW reason to use refined fuel.
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Old 06-30-2017, 05:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

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Hm, then why would anyone ever buy refined fuel? Fuel processors are "standard issue" on a lot of ships, and seem to be pretty cheap otherwise. Is processing time really that big of a drawback?
Well if you are a merchant on a regular run, you *won't* have a fuel processor. It costs extra, takes up volume and adds weight to your ship you could use for paying cargo, and yes, the time you spend processing fuel is time you aren't making money. But that that kind of business isn't an *adventure*, so those aren't the kind of ships that get lovingly detailed in game supplements.
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

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For large unstreamlined ships, getting unrefined fuel often involves going well out of your way. For streamlined PC-type ships visiting worlds with hydrographic percentages above zero, there's not much RAW reason to use refined fuel.
I can think of lots of reasons, but most of them boil down to 1) time and 2) regulations. In any semi-realistic game it's going to take valuable time to do that fuel processing, and time is money. Then Imagine wanting to fly your spaceship over to Myrtle Beach and park it there while you drop a fuel processing line into the ocean to start scooping up water. The local beach-goers are going to have a thing or two to say about that.
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

I'm not sure time is that big a factor really. Using purely ISW as a base, both the Hero (Type-A) and Lightning class ships have fuel processors that can fill their fuel tanks just over 12 hours. Time from surface to jump range can vary widely, but 6 hours has been common in my games. That means that getting unrefined fuel (which cost less than 1/4 of refined) or finding a "free" source only adds a little over 6 hours to the journey.

And all this assumes that there will be no time spend on the planet. But if a PC ship is trading then they are likely spending at least 5 days (per the rules in ISW for seeking cargo/passengers) on the planet.

Sure in cases where a cargo needs to travel several jumps from it's origin, this might be a problem. But based on the trade rules, it seems easier to find cargo that is traded between nearby systems than distant ones.

Anyway, I guess my problem is that this could be an interesting choice for players, to pick the cheap fuel that gives a penalty to jump, or a expensive fuel that works fine. But instead it just seems like extra complexity that (in my experience) the average group doesn't need to bother with, so is just sort of "noise".

Perhaps it is a bigger deal in other additions of Traveller, but in ISW it just seems unnecessary.

I'm not a stickler for "cannon", so I'm thinking in my game I will have 3 types of fuel (raw, unrefined, refined) and that processors turn raw into unrefined. I'll move the unrefined penalties to jump ops to "raw" and halve them for unrefined. This IMO, gives characters an interesting choice when dealing with going cheap or not.
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Old 07-04-2017, 09:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

If you have a megafreighter running between heavily populated planets on a regular run, then even six hours can mean a lot of money. If there are thousands of these freighters and the systems at each jump are high traffic, with tightly regulated access to resources, then getting raw fuel for all of the freighters would involve a lot more waiting then refueling. If you are trying to make your freight business as efficient as possible putting a fuel processor on your rigs is space and mass that you could have sold for cargo. It makes a lot more sense, at that scale, to just fuel the rigs while loading/unloading with fuel processed from a dedicated facility.

None of this matters to PCs running tramp runs in the boondocks. Unless they return to Sol or another high traffic system, in which case they may find that they would rather go to a fuel station then fill out permits and wait in line at the public zones of Jupiter, or go to jail and pay massive fines for refueling at Pismo Beach.

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Old 07-12-2017, 09:09 PM   #9
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

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Hm, then why would anyone ever buy refined fuel? Fuel processors are "standard issue" on a lot of ships, and seem to be pretty cheap otherwise. Is processing time really that big of a drawback?
Fuel made at the factory might have fewer impurities. Getting a clog on a long voyage would not be good for your schedule though come to think of it, might make an interesting adventure. If the improper fuel turns out to be to unstable as well it is even more interesting.

That may not be canon but it is worth putting in.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:56 AM   #10
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Default Re: Fuel Processors and Unrefined Fuel

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Fuel made at the factory might have fewer impurities. Getting a clog on a long voyage would not be good for your schedule though come to think of it, might make an interesting adventure. If the improper fuel turns out to be to unstable as well it is even more interesting.

That may not be canon but it is worth putting in.
The problem is that fuel is hydrogen and unrefined fuel is a source of hydrogen. The most common kind of unrefined fuel might be gas giant atmosphere which is not known for clog inducing components. Most of what you'd be filtering out is it is helium too and that's not known to be explosive.

Of course, when you're refining your own fuel you're throwing away everything that isn't hydrogen. So while this mean refined fuel is _more_ explosive in an oxygen atmosphere whatever the problems with the stuff you're getting rid of, you're getting rid of it.

After GG atmosphere the main source is water. Clogging problems are handled by a wire mesh screen on your intakes and what you're discarding is oxygen. Pumping large quantities of O2 into the air is something you might not be allowed to do at a spaceport but mostly your refining equipment can handle what you need on the way to the 100D limit.

H2 probably was not the best choice of fuel long ago when that decision was made but trying to complicate the acquisition of the most common element in the universe isn't really helping.
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