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Old 01-09-2015, 03:23 PM   #41
Otaku
 
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
I most certainly was not taking Kromm's quote out of context. He was agreeing with the general point that advantages are not priced based on utility but are in fact priced based on desired rarity in the game (which in turn is related to general rarity in fiction).
So in due diligence, I went back to read the thread (and quote) and I realize now that it was indeed myself who misunderstood the context; though Kromm references First Edition rules, he is merely explaining that is how it was then and they hadn't changed anything so that is how it is now. My apologies for being so careless, since had I just double checked the first few posts of the thread after reading your comment referencing the Kromm quote, I wouldn't have wasted time suggesting you might be wrong when you were in fact completely correct. The real sad part is that I am pretty sure I've read at least that much of that thread before.

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
The fact that power gamers who want very "powerful" characters always gravitate to the same advantages is not really a bug here.
I don't recall that argument being made. I will try to make time to go back through the last few pages to check. Unless you are getting that from it being under priced and thus popular... which isn't quite the same thing. A popular advantage that any group of gamers gravitates towards is fine if it is properly priced.

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
It aids verisimilitude: it's easier to become awesome in some ways than others.
Not sure for how many people that statement holds true; aren't there things that are easier to gain than Combat Reflexes? Wasn't the entire point that it wasn't "easier to get" to that it was simply common to adventure settings? Isn't something being too common because it is under priced likely to hurt suspension of disbelief?

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
Plenty of real people are sharpshooters and karate masters, and in fiction there are commonly characters who can cast spells or for whom events serendipitously seem to "work out," but it's impossible (in real life) and rare (in fiction) to be able to turn invisible or travel through time.
As stated, I blew my credibility earlier, so it probably is somewhere between nonsense and insult that I have to challenge your statement here; you've got a lot of subjective standards there. What constitutes a karate master or sharpshooter in real life... and how is that portrayed in GURPS? Spellslingers are common in some works and absent in others. Serendipity for a character in fiction is often considered bad writing. Characters that turn invisible is dependent on the setting; in some its quite common in others it is quite rare. If prices are supposed to reflect this, then templates probably should carry a discount so long as they are meant to reflect something more common in the setting.

Oh, and traveling through time is quite common; its traveling in more than one direction at more than one rate that is rare... relatively speaking as some settings are all about such time travel. Of course, none of this answers my concerns over "Doesn't this goof up other game mechanics?" I mean, where Trait A depends upon the cost of Trait B; if Trait B is priced not based on perceived usefulness but on how common it is, then all those times where "We made it a Perk because it cost too much otherwise." is wrong.

I'll say it a third time (unless I said it more than that in this post... kind of out of time here): even in my own eyes I blew my credibility. Then again, this entire series of threads was for those that have questions over even stuff in [Basic]... which included me. I've been given an answer, but it lacks justification for why it is "right". I mean, just because something has been that way since 1st Edition doesn't make it right or wrong, that just makes it something that has been that way since 1st Edition. I never played 2e but I'm assuming something changed between 1e and 2e. If just being a certain way in 1e made something the correct way to do things, why change things for later editions? I did play under 3e rules and even with my minimal use of 4e, I still consider 4e to be a superior product.
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Old 01-09-2015, 04:42 PM   #42
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Isn't something being too common because it is under priced likely to hurt suspension of disbelief?
Not if it's "underpriced" because it's so common. Then the low price helps it to become common among the PCs as well.
The GM is free to assign whatever point values he likes--the creators of GURPS, based on guesses or opinions about what kinds of games people will generally want to play, decided on what traits should be easier to get or more difficult to get. If a trait is particularly rare in your world, you're explicitly encouraged to charge an "Unusual Background" penalty. Even the name makes it clear that the higher cost is for the unusualness, not the utility.

The real issue is that the "fair" cost for an advantage will vary from game to game whether you price for utility or rarity. But rarity is actually more likely to be similar from game to game, because people tend to tell stories that fit into well-known genres: tolkeinesque fantasy, modern action, pulp adventures, horror, sci-fi, etc. Utility varies hugely, because it's so dependent on TL, whether the game will be heavy on combat or social role-playing or sneaking around or whatever. Utility also depends somewhat on rarity, since surprise factor and uniqueness both add to utility.

For example, suppose I'm running a fantasy game and I'm pricing everything for utility. I tell my players that there are five dominant languages in the world: Common, Elvish, Dwarvish, Orcish, and Gnomish. But I know that in the first adventure the PCs will travel to visit elven lands, while I have no plans whatsoever to introduce any gnomes in the campaign. Should I tell my PCs that Elvish costs double now and Gnomish is a perk? I'd be giving away my plans for the campaign. Better to price all languages the same and see what kinds of characters the players are interested in making.
Or if I plan to have a lot of the battles happen at night, should I jack up the price of Night Vision? This way madness lies...
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Old 01-09-2015, 05:47 PM   #43
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
S


As stated, I blew my credibility earlier, so it probably is somewhere between nonsense and insult that I have to challenge your statement here; you've got a lot of subjective standards there. What constitutes a karate master or sharpshooter in real life... and how is that portrayed in GURPS?
A karate master is someone who knows a lot of karate. A sharpshooter is someone who has good enough guns skills to be able to do trick shots

Quote:
Spellslingers are common in some works and absent in others.
The price of an advantage in a campaign where it does exist is not a matter of concern.

Quote:
Serendipity for a character in fiction is often considered bad writing.
Serendipity is actually a very expensive advantage. Luck on the other hand, the ability to succeed very slightly more often than the odds would suggest is as common as the ability to respond effectively to surprises in action protagonists.

Quote:
Characters that turn invisible is dependent on the setting; in some its quite common
Name a setting where it is common.


Quote:
Oh, and traveling through time is quite common; its traveling in more than one direction at more than one rate that is rare
Being carried along helplessly by time is not the same thing as travelling in it.



Quote:
I'll say it a third time (unless I said it more than that in this post... kind of out of time here): even in my own eyes I blew my credibility. Then again, this entire series of threads was for those that have questions over even stuff in [Basic]... which included me. I've been given an answer, but it lacks justification for why it is "right".
Because Hero System already exists. I pick GURPS over Hero because I find Hero to be lacking in flavour in an "all system and no labels" way and because I agree with the philosophy that features should be priced according to how common you want them to be in the campaign rather than according according to a frequently incalculable standard of relative utility
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Old 01-09-2015, 06:55 PM   #44
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Serendipity is actually a very expensive advantage. Luck on the other hand, the ability to succeed very slightly more often than the odds would suggest is as common as the ability to respond effectively to surprises in action protagonists.
Serendipity costs the same as the first level of Luck.
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Old 01-09-2015, 10:56 PM   #45
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes

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Originally Posted by Gnome View Post
If a trait is particularly rare in your world, you're explicitly encouraged to charge an "Unusual Background" penalty. Even the name makes it clear that the higher cost is for the unusualness, not the utility.
You wrong there is it unusualness isn't enough for it to get a UB it the utility as well, you only charge a UB is when it's so unusual that people general don't have ways of dealing with it. such as an Innate attack does more damage than any of the settings known weapons so no one builds armour strong enough to resist it, or Teleportation so that no one builds secure locations that take teleportation as a possible threat in account etc.

See the Essay on Unusual Backgrounds in GURPS Powers p.184–186
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:13 PM   #46
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Defences, ETS

To answer the original post as to what I do with Combat Reflexes in my games, I've eliminated the RAW advantage and turned it into its breakdown components which players can buy separately.

Talent (Fast Draw) [5 x level]
Resistant to Mental Stun (Common; Only to recover from mental stun, -40%)
Fearlessness [2 x level]
Dodge +1 [15]
Perk (Can't be totally surprised) [1]
Enhanced Defenses (Parry and Block)

My "Combat Reflexes" package comes out as: Talent (Fast Draw) +1 [5]; Resistant to Mental Stun +8 (Common; Only to recover from mental stun, -40%) [5]; Fearlessness +2 [4]; and Perk (Can't be totally surprised) [1] for a total of 15 points. So it works pretty much as in the RAW except you don't get the +1 to active defenses.

There was a bit of grumbling at first when I first implemented this because of the cost increase to get all the same feature (that is, you have to buy Enhanced Defenses separately), but everyone has adapted to it now. Especially since they've been able to pick and choose their effects (e.g., "I don't need the +1 to fast-draw").
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:17 PM   #47
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Defences, ETS

Not Talent. Racial Skill Bonus [2/level].
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Old 02-21-2015, 07:04 PM   #48
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Defences, ETS

So after having taken some time off... this thread still makes me leery of continuing. There are some questions I didn't answer back then that I probably should address now.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
A karate master is someone who knows a lot of karate. A sharpshooter is someone who has good enough guns skills to be able to do trick shots
Now can you define it in a useful manner? Preferably so I can connect the concept as seen in real life and/or popular fiction versus GURPS game terms. The karate master definition is what one gathers from simply reading the word. Sharpshooter you did define. I disagree with it, you defined it. Since it has been so long, I will add that my initial inquiry about these was itself a response to Gnome suggesting these things were pretty common. I asked the question because I suspected the terms were being defined a lot differently than I would. As a portion of the world's population, these things are pretty rare.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The price of an advantage in a campaign where it does exist is not a matter of concern.
From contextual clues I had hoped it was apparent that I was trying to present a spectrum; in some settings a trait doesn't exist at all, in others it barely exists, in others still it is just a bit more common than the last... all the way to settings where everyone will have the trait by default. I am sorry I did not make it clear that is why the comment to which that is a response was even made. If the price in GURPS reflects the designers assumptions over how common something is, than each Advantage needs to explain that assumption so that the GM can adjust prices more accurately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Serendipity is actually a very expensive advantage.
15 points for a once-per-session plausible, fortunate coincidence doesn't seem all that expensive to me, or do you mean that it is overpriced relative to the benefit it grants? At the same time, it is also not exactly rare, though as the comment to which your statement was a response pointed out, it is also seen as something of a cop out; bad writing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Luck on the other hand, the ability to succeed very slightly more often than the odds would suggest is as common as the ability to respond effectively to surprises in action protagonists.
If we are pricing Luck based on how common it is in fiction, it might need to be discounted from the base price of 15 points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Name a setting where it is common.
This was a question about invisibility. I should not have worded it as "quite common". It is also important to remember that it just takes a story being set with a slightly different focus for how common or uncommon things are in the same setting. Still I should have simply said "It isn't rare."

Just in case... spoilers.

In the world of Harry Potter, while the main character has a "rare invisibility cloak" we later find out that its rare in the sense of a "rare" [insert item that can be reliably obtained if you spend enough money to buy it/]. Harry's ends up being quite special and works better than any other... but others do exist. Even if they didn't, one of the spells that can be learned is the "Disillusionment Charm". I am not certain if the Harry Potter setting is better handled with Spells as Skills or as Advantages that can be learned, but in the case of the latter then while it is not common it is not rare: "uncommon" is a good term for it.

I am not trying to pull a fast one, but some sort of "optic camouflage armor" shows up in multiple ultra-tech settings with which I am familiar. Again, calling it "common" was incorrect. It such settings, while sometimes its a prototype or have a low Legality Class, it is much like the Harry Potter cloaks. If pressed, I would point out that I was under the impression that for the "Predator" species of the Predator franchise, it seemed a standard feature of their armor. Of course, you're not generally paying points for such gear, but if someone had it built in should it be worth as much as in a setting where it only appears as a "super power" or the like?

Speaking of super powers... invisibility might not be standard issue, but its not all that rare. You assume at least one major name in a Marvel or DC like setting has Invisibility as their main thing and that several have some form of it as a part of their abilities. In most of these settings, those that have reason to worry about interference by "supers" include that in the laundry list of "powers to consider". Unless the characters are supposed to be surprised about such things. I'm a Transformers fan; while not every character can turn invisible, because apparently being alien robot life that transforms into at least one alternate mode isn't fantastic enough, over the years most iterations have had a character who could turn Invisible, though sometimes it is to a specific sense and not the visible like spectrum.

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Being carried along helplessly by time is not the same thing as travelling in it.
Sorry; I was trying to lighten the mood by making a joke. That is why that comment also included a statement about how it was rare to be able to travel through time except at the usual pace. Again though, its all about the setting; time travel is a common fantasy and science fiction theme. Does that translate to a "common" Advantage? No, but it goes again to how confusing it can be since when it comes to an Advantages base price, not all are equally rare or common in a setting, and by the time you establish guidelines to explain how common or uncommon something is assumed to be... you might as well work out a price based on what seems balanced for play and then let the GM decide if he or she wants to adjust it to make it more common.

I asked when this discussion was new why we didn't get prices based on what is balanced for game play "in general" so that the GM can then say "Okay, and I want it to be really common but not standard in my setting, so I'm going to halve the price." or "I want it to be rare but not forbidden so I'm going to double the price."

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Because Hero System already exists. I pick GURPS over Hero because I find Hero to be lacking in flavour in an "all system and no labels" way and because I agree with the philosophy that features should be priced according to how common you want them to be in the campaign rather than according according to a frequently incalculable standard of relative utility
If that was a joke, it went over about as well as my one about time travel. If it was a serious answer, I understood it about as well as I suspect a lot of my own questions/arguments were being understood. Never used the "Hero" system. Also I am not disagreeing with the GM pricing traits according to desired rarity. What I am disagreeing with is being forced to price things according to what the game designer things should be the desired rarity. Makes more sense to get an idea of how useful it is first and then factor in rarity, especially in a crunchy "toolkit" system like GURPS.
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Old 02-22-2015, 02:29 AM   #49
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Defences, ETS

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
15 points for a once-per-session plausible, fortunate coincidence doesn't seem all that expensive to me, or do you mean that it is overpriced relative to the benefit it grants?
Serendipity is a pain to GM. You either have to design it into each session, which is difficult when the PCs are free to do a very wide range of things, or it's an extra thing to remember to improvise. I've only used it on one of my own PCs, and it often didn't seem to happen unless I suggested something to the GM. Advantages that the players are meant to control are easier on the GM and more collaborative.
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Old 02-22-2015, 11:10 AM   #50
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week (#26): Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Defences, ETS

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
So... how has Combat Reflexes been working for you or those you've gamed with? What are your thoughts on its price?
CR seems to work fine. I've always felt it was waaaaay underpriced and now I see why.

As for how many take it: Most groups I've played in/run for seem to regard even "too good to pass up" advantages as "Does this work with my character's premise"? So it is neither over or under represented on character sheets in the groups I've been in.


HPT on the other hand, is often given the old hoary eyeball by GMs.


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Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk View Post
Combat Vet [5]
+6 on IQ rolls to wake up or recover from surprise or mental "stun"
+1 (or +2 if you are the leader) on initiative rolls to avoid a surprise attack.
I like it!


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Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
I didn't initially mean to contribute to the weird undercurrent of kinky on this thread, but my goodness, I read this and thought "even after you've seduced him, whyever would he untie you?"
If you've been tied such that the goods are easily accessible... seducing the Lt is a bad choice. Unless the goal of the game lies in that direction and then it's a bad choice...


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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
If that was a joke, it went over about as well as my one about time travel. If it was a serious answer, I understood it about as well as I suspect a lot of my own questions/arguments were being understood. Never used the "Hero" system.
HERO is GURPS without a soul... in other words everything is priced to be "comparatively equal" and there is relatively little to no individuality to purchase options.

Want to be more defensive? By up your Combat Defense stat.
Wnat to be better at attacking? Buy your Combat Attack stat.

(Ignore those terms, I've forgotten exactly what they are called of hand)

While HERO (and Champions) can be used to make highly individual characters, the lack of 'skills' makes character sheets 'seem' to be very similar.


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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Serendipity is a pain to GM. You either have to design it into each session, which is difficult when the PCs are free to do a very wide range of things, or it's an extra thing to remember to improvise. I've only used it on one of my own PCs, and it often didn't seem to happen unless I suggested something to the GM. Advantages that the players are meant to control are easier on the GM and more collaborative.
As a GM I tend to leave (and encourage) when Serendipity goes off to the Player. They make suggestions and I decide if it's appropriate.

Granted I've had one person take Serendipity and I've only taken it once. Impulse Buys may have killed it entirely as an Advantage.
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