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Old 06-23-2018, 07:00 PM   #131
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Experience Points

Hi Everyone,
I was introducing a new player, Glenn Spencer, to TFT long ago at a gaming club. He wrote up a character, and started roleplaying.

He became enchanted with the joint story telling. Then combat started. As he put it to me later...

"... I was really enjoying the story, but when combat started, everyone leaned forward, and started doing paperwork."

I won't mind if we go to a less intrusive way to keep track of experience.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:17 PM   #132
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: Experience Points

A very telling story.
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:14 PM   #133
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Experience Points

Something you can learn from hex-and-chit war games and miniature skirmish games is that the more you let outcomes follow directly from actions or rolls, as opposed to change in some metric that you need to track, the better. Thats why a concept like hit points doesn't appear in them. A good negative example is Avalon HIll's Gladiator. It has a lot in common with Melee, but involves quite a lot of paper work each turn. It is actually a great game with tons of tactical subtlety, but the note taking pretty much kills it.
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:25 PM   #134
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: Experience Points

Well, that's why I have enjoyed playing Ogre with removable weapons, on occasion, rather than the record sheet - but still, Ogre is an example of a hex-and-chit game that is largely differentiated by using a record sheet.
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:28 PM   #135
Steve Jackson
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Re: Experience Points

And here's a modified and number-crunched experience section for you to look at.

---

Experience Points
GMs can reward their players in two ways. The first is in-game – gold, magic items, reputation. The second way is through experience points, which allow characters themselves to improve. This section, even more than most, should be taken as a suggestion to the GM rather than Orders From Above. Every group has its own style and every GM will work differently with their group.

The whole party should get an XP reward at the end of each play session, based on how well they played as a group. For instance, the GM might award 60 points for the session, which would mean each player gets 60 points to improve their character.

Rewards might also come instantly, in the middle of play – for instance:
• For an outstanding example of cooperation.
• For working as a group to solve a puzzle.
• For finding an unexpected solution to an in-game situation.

The GM should also award XP to individuals during play, when a player does something that improves the game. For instance:
• For making everyone in the party gasp, exclaim, or laugh – provided it was by an in-character action.
• For achieving some important part of the objective – striking down the orc leader, convincing the dwarf-lord to show you a map, distracting the dragon for that crucial minute.
• For saving the day (or the party) through some in-character action.

Players keep track of their own XP and spend them as described below.

XP should not be mechanically granted just for slaying things. It’s a GM decision, and it’s first and always for good roleplaying.

A rate of 25 to 100 experience points per player per session will be appropriate for most campaigns, but this is a GM call. That rate will allow new characters to improve themselves after every session or so. Later, as the campaign itself becomes an important reward, the character advancement should slow down. The GM should try to provide challenges appropriate for the increasing competence of the party.

Spending Experience Points
XP are normally spent at the end of the expedition, when the characters are safe at home and at least mostly healed. GMs may allow exceptions as they see fit.

Experience points can be spent in several ways:
• To improve your basic stats: ST, DX, or IQ. This will improve all talents and saving rolls associated with that stat, but it’s expensive.
• To learn new spells and talents.
• For gold! Sweet, sweet gold!
• For a Limited Wish, which can save your life if luck turns against you.
• To improve your staff’s Mana stat, if you are a wizard. This lets you cast more spells.

Improving Basic Stats
You may use XP to buy up to 8 additional attribute points. These may be divided up between Strength, Dexterity, and IQ in any way you choose. After you have your eighth additional attribute point (which gets humans to a total of 40), attributes may only be increased further by very potent magic, such as a Wish.
The cost to improve a basic attribute depends on the current total of your attributes. Super-high stats will come at the expense of other stats, so there will be few geniuses and Olympic athletes. The highest “normal” attribute would be 24 – the character starts with 16 in the chosen stat and miraculously survives long enough to add all his optional points to that same stat.

Added attribute point - XP cost
33rd or lower – 100 XP
34th – 200
35th – 400
36th – 800
37th – 1,200
38th – 1,600
39th – 2,000
40th – 3,000
41st and later – Magic is needed.

Learning New Spells and Talents
Each new spell or talent learned costs 500 XP – or 1,000 for talents marked (2) in the listing, or 1,500 for those marked (3). It does not matter how many spells or talents you already know.
However, you may not learn a spell or talent unless you meet the minimum IQ requirement, as well as any prerequisites (such as other talents) shown in the listing.
When you add a new spell or talent, you may use it immediately. It is assumed that you were practicing or studying during the time you were earning the experience points.
As when the character was created, spells cost triple for a non-wizard, and talents cost double for a wizard.

Money
A character who needs mundane wealth between adventures may, if the GM permits, cash XP in for 1 gold piece each. The player must suggest a good in-game explanation of where the money came from. “Found it in the street” should work zero times, and “Rich uncle died” once at most. In general, XP are best spent improving your character, and money is best earned by slaying brigands and vile monsters. But – again, if the GM permits it – the money option is there.

The Lesser Wish
A Lesser Wish (see p. 00) is useful for controlling or rerolling single die rolls. The GM may allow characters, between adventures, to “purchase” one Lesser Wish for 500 XP, and hold it for emergencies. This rule is specifically intended to help players keep their experienced characters alive, if they are willing to invest XP in the insurance.

Mana and the Wizard’s Staff
(Much of this would be moved elsewhere, mostly under STAFF in the section on wizardry.)
Mana is a stat, not of the wizard, but of the wizard’s staff. When a wizard first creates a staff, it has 0 mana. By spending 200 XP, the wizard may add 1 to the mana of the staff, up to a limit equal to the wizard’s current IQ stat. Each point of mana can be spent like a point of ST to power spells.
Once spent, the mana must be replaced. To “recharge” his staff, the wizard must either spend 5 ST points, or spend a half-day in contemplation, for each ST point replaced. (An exploit is clearly possible here using the Drain ST spell and a lot of prisoners. It will at least encourage evil rulers to keep their prisoners alive so their evil wizards can farm ST. Maybe good rulers would do it too, at least as part of some punishments.)
If a staff is lost or destroyed, the wizard’s next one will have the same mana stat. The XP was spent, not to enhance a stick of wood, but to improve the wizard’s understanding of the spell. However, the new staff will contain no actual mana until the wizard puts it in.
A wizard may have only one staff at a time. If he loses his staff, the act of making another will disempower the old staff. Most staves are wood, but silver, and wood-and-silver, are allowable, and gem decorations are common for wealthy wizards.
No one but the creating wizard himself may draw ST from a staff.
The “Staff of Power” spell doubles the ST that a staff can hold, so the limit becomes twice the wizard’s IQ.

The wizard must be holding or wearing the staff for it to be useful.
A “staff” does not have to be a literal staff. Common forms include:
• An actual staff. Advantage: has other uses, including walking and whacking foes. Disadvantage: bulky.
• A wand. Advantages: light, stylish. Disadvantage: does no damage of its own if you strike with it.
• A necklace, bracelet, or even ring. Advantage: discreet; remains in touch with your skin but you don’t use hands. Disadvantage: cannot be used for a staff strike. You may not punch someone with a “staff ring” and do extra damage.
• Sword (must be silver, or it’s just a club). Advantage: deadly weapon, can be enhanced by staff-strike power. Disadvantage: of less use unless you have Sword training.
• Dagger (must be silver, or it’s just a stake). Advantage: last-ditch weapon, cleaning fingernails, gesturing emphatically. Disadvantage: less effective if you don’t buy Knife skill.

Unlike other spells, the Staff spell can be learned only by a wizard; it is the very mark of wizardry.

Staff strike: If a weapon-type staff contains mana, a wizard who hits with it may spend a single point of mana to do one extra die of damage with the staff. This attack is rolled separately and is not stopped by armor!



Forgetting
There is no longer a need to forget abilities, so all that stuff gets removed.
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:41 PM   #136
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Something you can learn from hex-and-chit war games and miniature skirmish games is that the more you let outcomes follow directly from actions or rolls, as opposed to change in some metric that you need to track, the better.
Sort of. The issue is really the number of distinct things you need to track, so the more units on the field, the less it's reasonable to track about each of them.
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:52 PM   #137
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Added attribute point - XP cost
33rd or lower – 100 XP
34th – 200
35th – 400
36th – 800
37th – 1,200
38th – 1,600
39th – 2,000
40th – 3,000
41st and later – Magic is needed.
Will there be talents and spells enough to fill that 16, 20, or 30 session gap so players can feel some kind of progress? Of course buying talents or spells will stretch the time out farther. [EDIT -- just read the new talent costs which I think removes this point]

What about this?

It's 9300 XP to go from 32 to 40 and that's only 8 attribute points at a bit less than 1200 XP per point. Is an exponential curve really needed for those 8 points? Why not just flatten it out at, say, 1000 XP per attribute point, so 8000 XP to get to 40 instead of 9300 which is roughly the same play time (and 1000 feels cleaner than 1200)...

Added attribute point - XP cost
Up to 40th – 1000
41st and later – Magic is needed.

This amortizes the wait times across the lifetime of the character and lets players see a steady progression. In between those 10 sessions, they can buy talents, spells, and mana points for their staves, which will will make different characters grow their attributes at different times.

Last edited by zot; 06-24-2018 at 04:54 PM. Reason: note
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:53 PM   #138
JLV
 
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
And here's a modified and number-crunched experience section for you to look at.

---


Mana and the Wizard’s Staff
(Much of this would be moved elsewhere, mostly under STAFF in the section on wizardry.)
Mana is a stat, not of the wizard, but of the wizard’s staff. When a wizard first creates a staff, it has 0 mana. By spending 200 XP, the wizard may add 1 to the mana of the staff, up to a limit equal to the wizard’s current IQ stat. Each point of mana can be spent like a point of ST to power spells.
Once spent, the mana must be replaced. To “recharge” his staff, the wizard must either spend 5 ST points, or spend a half-day in contemplation, for each ST point replaced. (An exploit is clearly possible here using the Drain ST spell and a lot of prisoners. It will at least encourage evil rulers to keep their prisoners alive so their evil wizards can farm ST. Maybe good rulers would do it too, at least as part of some punishments.)
If a staff is lost or destroyed, the wizard’s next one will have the same mana stat. The XP was spent, not to enhance a stick of wood, but to improve the wizard’s understanding of the spell. However, the new staff will contain no actual mana until the wizard puts it in.
A wizard may have only one staff at a time. If he loses his staff, the act of making another will disempower the old staff. Most staves are wood, but silver, and wood-and-silver, are allowable, and gem decorations are common for wealthy wizards.
No one but the creating wizard himself may draw ST from a staff.
The “Staff of Power” spell doubles the ST that a staff can hold, so the limit becomes twice the wizard’s IQ.

The wizard must be holding or wearing the staff for it to be useful.
A “staff” does not have to be a literal staff. Common forms include:
• An actual staff. Advantage: has other uses, including walking and whacking foes. Disadvantage: bulky.
• A wand. Advantages: light, stylish. Disadvantage: does no damage of its own if you strike with it.
• A necklace, bracelet, or even ring. Advantage: discreet; remains in touch with your skin but you don’t use hands. Disadvantage: cannot be used for a staff strike. You may not punch someone with a “staff ring” and do extra damage.
• Sword (must be silver, or it’s just a club). Advantage: deadly weapon, can be enhanced by staff-strike power. Disadvantage: of less use unless you have Sword training.
• Dagger (must be silver, or it’s just a stake). Advantage: last-ditch weapon, cleaning fingernails, gesturing emphatically. Disadvantage: less effective if you don’t buy Knife skill.

Unlike other spells, the Staff spell can be learned only by a wizard; it is the very mark of wizardry.

Staff strike: If a weapon-type staff contains mana, a wizard who hits with it may spend a single point of mana to do one extra die of damage with the staff. This attack is rolled separately and is not stopped by armor!
So the way I'm reading this, the Staff and Staff of Power lose their innate damage infliction capability? (That is, a Wizard's staff no longer does 1d damage if you hit someone with it, and is now either treated like a club, or like a quarterstaff if you have the Quarterstaff talent?)

Which is fine by me, but I thought I'd ask for clarification...

And, by the way, I think the new experience section is great! Will I miss the old 1xp/hit, plus xp for the killing blow stuff? Yeah, but given the reduction in paperwork, I'm fine with that too...
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:59 PM   #139
Wayne
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Geelong, Australia
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
So the way I'm reading this, the Staff and Staff of Power lose their innate damage infliction capability? (That is, a Wizard's staff no longer does 1d damage if you hit someone with it, and is now either treated like a club, or like a quarterstaff if you have the Quarterstaff talent?)
You can spend a strength point to get an extra 1d damage:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Staff strike: If a weapon-type staff contains mana, a wizard who hits with it may spend a single point of mana to do one extra die of damage with the staff. This attack is rolled separately and is not stopped by armor!
I would like the Staff of Power version to also have the option of 2d though.
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:10 PM   #140
JLV
 
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Location: Arizona
Default Re: Experience Points

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne View Post
You can spend a strength point to get an extra 1d damage:
Jeepers! Do I suffer from a lack of reading comprehension, anyone? Sorry! <scuffs feet in dust>
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