Body Language vs Detect Lies

[Jarreth]

Why would anyone get the Detect Lies skill when the Body Language skill is BOTH the Empathy advantage and the Detect Lies skill? Not to mention it's cheaper as well as its only Per/A where Detect Lies is Per/H.

I understand that Body Language is only on a subject you can see. Though cant help feel it's a bit OP.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Jarreth

Why would anyone get the Detect Lies skill when the Body Language skill is BOTH the Empathy advantage and the Detect Lies skill? Not to mention it's cheaper as well as its only Per/A where Detect Lies is Per/H.

I understand that Body Language is only on a subject you can see. Though cant help feel it's a bit OP.

Here's an old post of Kromm's showing the differences between them, that may be useful.
It IS a bit overpowered and probably should be Per/H.

[Jarreth]

Thanks Not another shrubbery. That is a good post explaining alot but still feel it doesn't explain why anyone would want to put points in Detect Lie when they can get that skill and more with Body Language.

Is Body Language supposed to be a form of Cold Reading or ?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Jarreth

Thanks Not another shrubbery. That is a good post explaining alot but still feel it doesn't explain why anyone would want to put points in Detect Lie when they can get that skill and more with Body Language.

Body Language takes all vision penalties, and doesn't work against purely audio or text channels. The uFAQ adds a few more notes on these skills and Advantage.

[Maz]

In my games i have lumped them Together into a single skill called Sense Motive (per/h)
It works as Body language but can be used on audio at a penalty.
It is used both to counter fast talk and acting. But also to notice if people "act differently than youd expect" or to notice "tells" that might show anxiety or nervousness or the like. Psychology can usually be used to make a guess as to why someone might be nervous or anxious.

[Jarreth]

Thanks vicky_molokh and Maz.

I think I will do a little house-ruling here, and edit Body Language abit.

[JazzJedi]

Originally Posted by Maz

In my games i have lumped them Together into a single skill called Sense Motive (per/h)
It works as Body language but can be used on audio at a penalty.
It is used both to counter fast talk and acting. But also to notice if people "act differently than youd expect" or to notice "tells" that might show anxiety or nervousness or the like. Psychology can usually be used to make a guess as to why someone might be nervous or anxious.

This is way better than separating them, as they are aspects of the same ability. Or maybe they should default to each other at -2 instead of -4. It would be like splitting the Observation skill into a vision and hearing version (Spot and Listen). Observation should cover "interesting" sounds as well as sights, unless someone is only using a TV monitor to access an area. Sight, hearing, and even touch are complementary and integral to each other in most skill use, including skills like Mechanics, Lockpicking, Music Instrument, all interaction skills, and so forth. I've merged quite a few skills that were, IMO, different aspects of the same skill. I think Techniques work better at defining different aspects of skills, rather than lots of overlapping defaults.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by JazzJedi

This is way better than separating them, as they are aspects of the same ability. Or maybe they should default to each other at -2 instead of -4. It would be like splitting the Observation skill into a vision and hearing version (Spot and Listen). Observation should cover "interesting" sounds as well as sights, unless someone is only using a TV monitor to access an area. Sight, hearing, and even touch are complementary and integral to each other in most skill use, including skills like Mechanics, Lockpicking, Music Instrument, all interaction skills, and so forth. I've merged quite a few skills that were, IMO, different aspects of the same skill. I think Techniques work better at defining different aspects of skills, rather than lots of overlapping defaults.

Except in this case it's more like a split between Observation and Intelligence Analysis. Now, if we're marging all skills into a manageable list of 20-30, then of course Body Language and Detect Lies go under the same umbrella. But otherwise they are very different approaches - one more delivery-focused, the other much more content-focused.

[Gollum]

Yes, and it also allows to have Player Characters with about the same ability (detect lies) but different backgrounds: the psychologist, the empathic, the mentalist, the cop or journalist used to meet a lot of liars ...

It makes the game more deep and "realistic" ... Even if it is not necessarily perfectly balanced in terms of point cost.

[JazzJedi]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Except in this case it's more like a split between Observation and Intelligence Analysis. Now, if we're marging all skills into a manageable list of 20-30, then of course Body Language and Detect Lies go under the same umbrella. But otherwise they are very different approaches - one more delivery-focused, the other much more content-focused.

Not sure I agree, but I am not an expert. Everything I have read of the psychology of interrogation and human lie detection is in the ability to pick up on verbal and non-verbal cues. Are these aspects separated and taught separately? If they aren't, then this is really one skill with a several dimensions, like most GURPS skills.